Ravenheat Boilers

[corgiman]

I was always told that if you believe the boiler has been installed by a Non RGI it was a RIDDOR

but then who am I against the font of all knowledge abd soothsayer water systems

I am probably making it up again as you all now me I am a little bit ooh and a little arr

 

[Water Systems]

The law is the law.

Find me a law which says someone can't offer an extended guarantee subject to only qualified people working on a product.

You have difficulty with something so simple. You can offer an extended guarantee with only competent people servicing in the interim. The laws says for gas two points apply:

1. When working for money being compentent and holding a Corgi card.

2. When working for no money being competent no Corgi card needed.

You know this. It is simple. If the serviceman falls into any of those two laid down by law they have to accept the service and honour any guarantees over and above the law.

- a product is a product.
Rubbish. Ones with gas in are treated differently.

No. The law is the same for all products. With gas two points apply. Nos 1 and 2 above.

The same law applies
Who says?

The law.

MTS won't come out to their latest boilers if they know it was DIY installed.

They are breaking the law and would have to honour the guaratee if No. 2 above applies. A swift court case will sharpen their wits.

BG won't honour their 3 star cover if they know a non-corgi has worked on the system.

They are breaking the law. Also their 3-star is all done by them. The servicing, etc.

I have experience of both - and others.
Water Systems may think it should not be like that, but his opinion doesn't matter.

Not my OPINION. It is the law. Get to known the law relating to your own field. Companies are openly breaking the law. Glow Worm changed its instructions, where they do not mention "has to be Corgi" any more. Most now use the word "competent". What is competent? See Nos. 1. and 2. above.

Simple. After all this time the penny hasn't dropped has it?

 

[Water Systems]

I was always told

Whoever told you, told you wrong. Find out properly. Or just read my posts.

 

[Water Systems]

this is one of the problems. How can you judge anyone is competant. I know the law states if you are competant then you can't "work" on gas (meaning recieving payment for doing so) unless you are Corgi Reg. but you can for yourself.

How you judge yourself as being competant without with being inspected by CORGI or going to college every 5 years to be re trained is anybodys guess.

Inspected by Corgi? They are a registration authority, nothing else.

I know of one kid who after 6 months is walking about with a corgi card going into people's houses. Competent? A card means sweet FA.

You can't get your minds around this simple point. A competent person can do gas work as long as there is no payment.

 

[micky p]

this is one of the problems. How can you judge anyone is competant. I know the law states if you are competant then you can't "work" on gas (meaning recieving payment for doing so) unless you are Corgi Reg. but you can for yourself.

How you judge yourself as being competant without with being inspected by CORGI or going to college every 5 years to be re trained is anybodys guess.

Inspected by Corgi? They are a registration authority, nothing else.

I know of one kid who after 6 months is walking about with a corgi card going into people's houses. Competent? A card means sweet FA.

You can't get your minds around this simple point. A competent person can do gas work as long as there is no payment.

Obviously you know little about CORGI. As being a registered to them i have first hand knowlege of being inspected by them 2 times in the past 5 years. If the Corgi inspector isn't happy about the way you work on gas then he has a right to report back and strike you off. So CORGI have a little more power than you think.

 

[nickso]

BG won't honour their 3 star cover if they know a non-corgi has worked on the system.

They are breaking the law. Also their 3-star is all done by them. The servicing, etc.

three star cover and a guarantee on a boiler installed by BG are different things completely

it states in the terms and conditions that BG wont rectify mistakes made by third parties. there is nothing to state that a third party however cannot work on the appliances or system.

there is a s far as i know no clause which differentiates between corgi or non corgi registered people working on anything covered by any BG contract.

whether or not that is actually applied in reality is another matter entirely.

 

[Water Systems]

this is one of the problems. How can you judge anyone is competant. I know the law states if you are competant then you can't "work" on gas (meaning recieving payment for doing so) unless you are Corgi Reg. but you can for yourself.

How you judge yourself as being competant without with being inspected by CORGI or going to college every 5 years to be re trained is anybodys guess.

Inspected by Corgi? They are a registration authority, nothing else.

I know of one kid who after 6 months is walking about with a corgi card going into people's houses. Competent? A card means sweet FA.

You can't get your minds around this simple point. A competent person can do gas work as long as there is no payment.

Obviously you know little about CORGI. As being a registered to them i have first hand knowlege of being inspected by them 2 times in the past 5 years. If the Corgi inspector isn't happy about the way you work on gas then he has a right to report back and strike you off.

That is internal regulation of the club

So CORGI have a little more power than you think.

Internal power only. Corgi's remit is people working for gain and registered. Outside of this, outside of their remit, DIY, is not their business. The quality of a DIYer doing work is the problem of the HSE.

The regs (the law) are not Corgi.
The safety (HSE) is not Corgi.

Can you tell me what power they have, besides internal policing?

 

[Water Systems]

three star cover and a guarantee on a boiler installed by BG are different things completely

it states in the terms and conditions that BG wont rectify mistakes made by third parties. there is nothing to state that a third party however cannot work on the appliances or system.

there is a s far as i know no clause which differentiates between corgi or non corgi registered people working on anything covered by any BG contract.

Yep. If there is leak over Xmas and the plumber next door fixed it, or did a temporary job, because they were busy, they will accept that.

whether or not that is actually applied in reality is another matter entirely.

If you are on one of their contracts, the only way someone else would work on a system is if they can't call out. To extend a system, say putting in a rad, does not require Corgi or them doing that.

 

[nickso]

three star cover and a guarantee on a boiler installed by BG are different things completely

it states in the terms and conditions that BG wont rectify mistakes made by third parties. there is nothing to state that a third party however cannot work on the appliances or system.

there is a s far as i know no clause which differentiates between corgi or non corgi registered people working on anything covered by any BG contract.

Yep. If there is leak over Xmas and the plumber next door fixed it, or did a temporary job, because they were busy, they will accept that.

whether or not that is actually applied in reality is another matter entirely.

If you are on one of their contracts, the only way someone else would work on a system is if they can't call out. To extend a system, say putting in a rad, does not require Corgi or them doing that.

yes in the name of customer satisfaction they would probably do the job.....they would be daft not to really. however they are under no obligation to do so.

there is nothing to say that a third party cannot do any work on the appliances or system at anytime. BG will accept this as long as BG are not expected to rectify any problems associated with the third party work. whether you are corgi or not is not an issue in these cases. the type of work done is also not an issue.

in most cases i beleive it is down to the individual manager responsible to make a decision as to whether work will be covered or not if it is outside the terms and conditions

 

[micky p]

this is one of the problems. How can you judge anyone is competant. I know the law states if you are competant then you can't "work" on gas (meaning recieving payment for doing so) unless you are Corgi Reg. but you can for yourself.

How you judge yourself as being competant without with being inspected by CORGI or going to college every 5 years to be re trained is anybodys guess.

Inspected by Corgi? They are a registration authority, nothing else.

I know of one kid who after 6 months is walking about with a corgi card going into people's houses. Competent? A card means sweet FA.

You can't get your minds around this simple point. A competent person can do gas work as long as there is no payment.

Obviously you know little about CORGI. As being a registered to them i have first hand knowledge of being inspected by them 2 times in the past 5 years. If the Corgi inspector isn't happy about the way you work on gas then he has a right to report back and strike you off.

That is internal regulation of the club

So CORGI have a little more power than you think.

Internal power only. Corgi's remit is people working for gain and registered. Outside of this, outside of their remit, DIY, is not their business. The quality of a diyer doing work is the problem of the hse.

The regs (the law) are not Corgi.
The safety (HSE) is not Corgi.

Can you tell me what power they have, besides internal policing?

what i am getting at is to be recognised as competent you have to either of passed your ACS (which a DIY would not of done.) and to make sure your are still competent that is Corgi's job to inspect you once every 3 years or so.

What you are saying is true but who says YOU are competent. Only people i know of is when you carry out an ACS assessment and a Corgi inspector.

the only power corgi have is to pass info onto the HSE and then they will nail you... in a court of law. So yeah Corgi don't have any power of the law but what they do have is a monopoly. The law states to "work" (meaning receiving a payment) on gas you have to be a member of a recognised body. Only one i know is CORGI, so if they strike you off ...where are you going to go. (maybe Nappit if they ever set up the gas work)

 

[Water Systems]

what i am getting at is to be recognised as competent you have to either of passed your ACS

That only applies to those who make money from gas not those who do not. So not applicable.

the only power corgi have is to pass info onto the HSE and then they will nail you... in a court of law. So yeah Corgi don't have any power of the law but what they do have is a monopoly.

What monopoly is that? They are just a registration authority. They have a monopoly on keeping the names and giving badges.

Anyone can get the HSE in.

<snip irrelvant stuff>

 

[ChrisR]

You can't get your minds around this simple point. A competent person can do gas work as long as there is no payment.

WRONG.

Water Systems can't get his head round the simple point that he will believe what he wants to, despite the facts. He deceives only himself.

 

[Water Systems]

You can't get your minds around this simple point. A competent person can do gas work as long as there is no payment.

WRONG.

Water Systems can't get his head round the simple point that he will believe what he wants to, despite the facts. He deceives only himself.

You are clearly not very bright with poor comprehension and promoting a self interest group. Read on....

On CORGI's web site in the section on achieving ACS Accreditation.

"Until 1998, gas installers could achieve certificates of competence through a number of different certification schemes - resulting in an inconsistency of standards across the UK. Those separate schemes have now been replaced by the Nationally Accredited Certification Scheme for Individual Gas Fitting Operatives (ACS).

This means that all operatives are assessed within nationally agreed standards, to gain certificates that need renewal every five years. Assessments are available from some 150 centres around the UK. Each of these has been approved by one of six certification bodies accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS)."

"All gas installation businesses and operatives must be in a "class of persons" approved by the Health and Safety Executive. That currently means they must be registered with CORGI."


The above does not apply to DIY work. CORGI, as one would expect, say “could be dangerous" and "likely to be illegal". Weasel words. Could and likley are not is.

Corgi is a registration authority:

1. They do not make the regs (the regs are law, BritStandards is recomendations)

2. Not responsible for safety, that is the HSE (a HSE man will come to inspect an unsafe installation).

Corgi keep a list of qualified people, issue a badge and give a mag every month to their members.

Here is the referring Statutory Instrument.The one that matters:
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982451.htm

The HSE published a complete Fundamental Review of Gas Safety

http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/index.htm

In which there is a section discussing DIY

http://www.hse.gov.uk/fundgas.htm

It does say:

DIY installation and maintenance Question 30. Should DIY work be legally prohibited, e.g. by restricting the sale of gas equipment to registered gas installers? Should retailers be legally required to record sales of gas equipment and pass these to a central body, perhaps CORGI? Should any central body selected for this purpose be required to arrange the inspection of gas installation work in any case where the record of sale suggests work will be carried out by an unregistered installer? Should increased publicity on the dangers of DIY gas work be given by (i) HSE campaigns, (ii) manufacturer's warnings, (iii) other means? (HSC Discussion Document 'Gas Safety Review: option for change', DDE14a, Page 50) Recommendation 26

226. We understand concern about the possible risks posed by incompetent DIY gas work, but believe at present there is insufficient hard evidence of incidents to support the introduction of a legal ban. However, we recognise that current statistics might not tell the full story and recommend that further work be done more accurately to identify the scale of the problem, i.e. by refining arrangements for reporting incidents specifically to identify those related to DIY (see Recommendation 9), with a view to reviewing the legal position again (say in five years time).

227. In the meantime, we recommend that increased publicity should be given to the dangers of DIY gas work (possibly funded through industry and the Gas Safety Levy - see Recommendations 7 and 11). This should focus more on legal requirements for competence if DIY is undertaken, and penalties if these are not met. More encouragement should also be given to retailers for providing 'point of sale' information, and equipment manufacturers to include warnings with products.

Analysis of responses

228. Of a total 109 responses to Q 30, 54 supported the principle of banning DIY with 35 specifically against; whereas 44 were in favour of a ban in practice with 47 against (NB some voted just for principle or practice,
others for both). The similar question in the consumer document resulted in 29 favouring a ban with 31 against and 1 unclear. Replies to the public questionnaire showed 285 in favour of a ban with 54 against. The issue was also posted on a DIY Internet web site which provoked a number of responses from those practising DIY gas work; these were against more legal controls but generally supported further publicity, stressing competence requirements for DIY rather than frightening people away from doing it.

Argument

232. Data currently available suggests that a number of gas incidents have occurred over recent years where DIY is directly or indirectly implicated, but, the link is not always entirely clear and in some cases it is possible for other factors to have contributed. At present we do not believe that this evidence is sufficiently strong to suggest that current legal controls (ie for competence under GSIUR regulation 3(1)) are inadequate, and an absolute ban needs to be placed on DIY. If you look at some of the rest of the report, and contributing consultants reports concerning dangers in the home in general, you will read that in the gas arena, CO poisoning is by far and away the biggest issue, and that all gas related accidents in the home are a tiny proportion of the total.

Look at from above:

At present we do not believe that this evidence is sufficiently strong to suggest that current legal controls (ie for competence under GSIUR regulation 3(1)) are inadequate, and an absolute ban needs to be placed on DIY.

What is says is that current contols are adequate and an absolute ban is not required for DIY. If they are not banning it it must be legal.

DIY gas work is legal and is not a major focus area of the HSE. That's pretty clear.

This post should clear up all the unnecessary tripe posts on this topic. Just refer to this post the next time this topic arises.

 

[Strachan]

Are we there yet? I really don`t care, i`m not a diy`er, and better still, i get paid for it!

 

[fitz1]

In the last three weeks i have had to rectify gas work and flue installation and modifications done by 4 persons believing they were competent enough.Water systems may well be competent in such matters but , still should not be promoting or encouraging diy gas related work.In such ,his statements in such matters suggest his grievances are overiding responsibilities to safety therefore recognising incompetence.