Reasons to Remain.

[Himaginn]

Then why have you been trying to suggest that outside of the EU the U.K.'s trade with EU countries would plummet to very low levels?

Strawman AGAIN!

Or are you trying to suggest that without coming to some deal the EU finds acceptable that it would simply embargo all trade with the U.K?

Another attempt at strawman argument.
You are the only one advocating the UK can manage without a trade deal with EU.
No-one mentioned anything about EU embargoing trade with UK. They'd be happy to trade with us, as long as we comply with their regulations and pay their import duties.

But haven't you been claiming that they'll be decimated, or worse? Based upon what assumption?

Nope, that's been and still is your strawman argument.

If you can't have a sensible discussion without resorting to Strawman arguments, perhaps you should do what you suggested.
Now go away, find where I'm supposed to have said "trade with EU countries would plummet to very low levels?" When you can't, I suggest you come back and apologise!

 

[Himaginn]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ompletely-open-about-its-superstate-plan.html

Another reason to vote NO methinks... JohnD and Himmy,, do you really want an EU Superstate??

OMG, he's believing political broadcasts now!!
Where will his naivety end?
Did you not notice who wrote that piece?

 

[tony1851]

@JohnD; Something tells me you are going to vote 'Remain'; I shall be voting 'Leave', so our votes will cancel each other out.
How about we both agree to stay in that day, so it saves both of us the trouble of voting! Simple!

 

[JohnD]

Did you not notice who wrote that piece?

It was Buffoon Boris "I will say anything to get Dave's job" Johnson.

Who previously said
"Quitting the EU won't solve our problems, says Boris Johnson"
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2013/may/13/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu
"MOST OF OUR PROBLEMS ARE NOT CAUSED BY "BWUSSELS" BUT BY CHRONIC BRITISH SHORT-TERMISM, INADEQUATE MANAGEMENT, SLOTH, LOW SKILLS, A CULTURE OF EASY GRATIFICATION AND UNDER-INVESTMENT IN HUMAN AND PHYSICAL CAPITAL AND INFRASTRUCTURE"

 

[EFLImpudence]

This referendum is going to be a farce, whatever the result.

We are not allowed to take note, or even read it seems, views from anyone because they will obviously be biased one way or the other - isn't that politics and how it works?



Could we please have someone who doesn't give a toss tell us - everyone - the truth?

Oh, NO ONE KNOWS what it will be like if we leave because it has never happened before.

Trusting a no-one-knows choice to the knows-nothing-much electorate is dangerous.

 

[JohnD]

The result will depend who votes. Not many will have their fundamental attitudes to the world changed.

Now that the last British generation who lived through a great European war are mostly dead, a larger proportion of the older people are anti-foreigner, anti-Europe, and anti-EU.

Younger people are much more internationally-minded, and are predominantly pro-Europe and pro-EU.

However the Daily Mail-reading Victor Meldrews are more interested in voting, and usually have a higher turnout.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...n-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-remain.html

In the Independence for England referendum held in Scotland last year, the SNP-dominated Scottish Parliament lowered the voting age to 16. It had been thought that young Scots were more keen on independence. In December, the Conservative-dominated house of Commons voted against granting the vote to under-18s in the EU referendum.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ng-voting-age-for-eu-referendum-a6764966.html
Amusingly, it turned out that the SNP ploy backfired on them.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...s_voted_No_and_only_25_39_age_group_said_Yes/
Perhaps they will change it back for their next try.

 

[EFLImpudence]

In the Independence for England referendum held in Scotland last year

I like that. That explains the result.

 

[tony1851]

Younger people are much more internationally-minded, and are predominantly pro-Europe and pro-EU.

That's quite true. Going back to the 1975 referendum, many young people then were similarly internationally-minded, and the result was 2:1 to stay in.
But many of those who voted to stay in then have since changed their minds because they have seen how things have gone. It's not that older people are necessarilly more pessimistic/conservative/grumpy etc, it's just that they can take a longer view. Perhaps many younger people voting to remain now, will see it differently in 20/30 years?

 

[jockscott]

Obviously jock is not a UK taxpayer, so he doesn't contribute to roadbuilding, schools or the NHS, used by people, some of whom are poorer than him.

Actually I am a UK tax payer, work for the NHS, and last year paid around £2500 in PAYE contributions. I personally donated many times to the NHS too (direct donations to ward funds and indirect to many department raffles, by donating prizes and buying tickets. I think you'd be surprised by the extra work I do (unpaid, by stopping on at the end of a 12,5 hr shift for an extra hour or so, to catch up with paperwork, and the unpaid courses I have to attend, to keep my training up to date) Do you do any unpaid overtime JohnD ? If so, How much in a year ?

 

[PBC_1966]

They are not from "one particular country."

I was referring to the fact that each individual member is from one particular country. Just because a particular member happens to be from the U.K., or Spain, or Sweden, or wherever does not mean that he has the best interests of his own country at heart and that he doesn't have some dream of it being merged into a single European superstate.

However, the countries with recent experience of the Soviet Empire are very keen to escape it and to become part of a European Union.

The way the EU is going, give it another 20 or 30 years and they - along with all the others - may well be just as keen to escape from the EU as they were from the Soviet Union. And by that time, the method they used to escape from the latter may be the only option left to get out of the EU.

 

[PBC_1966]

Now go away, find where I'm supposed to have said "trade with EU countries would plummet to very low levels?"

What do you call this then?

Now could you present us with a similar bar chart for imports and exports after withdrawal from the EU?

//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/trade-with-eu.454013/page-6

 

[PBC_1966]

That's quite true. Going back to the 1975 referendum, many young people then were similarly internationally-minded, and the result was 2:1 to stay in.

Not to mention the fact that at that time they were told that the EEC was only about free trade and nothing else, and having been in the EEC for only a couple of years at that time, it had not yet become clear to most people that even at that point the EEC was already calling the tune over certain things: VAT, the common agricultural policy, common fisheries policy etc. The list of things in which the present EU now interferes, supposedly in the name of "free trade," makes that original list seem trivial by comparison anyway.

 

[Himaginn]

They are not from "one particular country."

Just because a particular member happens to be from the U.K., or Spain, or Sweden, or wherever does not mean that he has the best interests of his own country at heart and that he doesn't have some dream

That's certainly true of Nigel Farage.

However, the countries with recent experience of the Soviet Empire are very keen to escape it and to become part of a European Union.

The way the EU is going, give it another 20 or 30 years and they - along with all the others - may well be just as keen to escape from the EU as they were from the Soviet Union. And by that time, the method they used to escape from the latter may be the only option left to get out of the EU.

You've illustrated time and time again, your obsessive obtuse obstinacy in refusing to accept documented evidence, empirical data and historical examples.
So you're most likely going to retain your prejudicial opinion of European Union and no-one, no argument, no evidence, no data, no example is ever likely to affect that.

 

[Himaginn]

Now go away, find where I'm supposed to have said "trade with EU countries would plummet to very low levels?"

What do you call this then?

Now could you present us with a similar bar chart for imports and exports after withdrawal from the EU?

//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/trade-with-eu.454013/page-6

My response is exactly the same as when you first asked this question:

I don't recall seeing the reference to "millions" and "devastated." Where did you see them?

For a start, a little way up this thread somebody suggested what would happen to U.K. exports to EU countries after withdrawal:

I think the figures suggested by that change would count as "devastated."

What's your projection?


You're regurgitating old comments. A sure sign that you've exhausted your arguments.

How many would be lost, and over what kind of time frame is difficult to predict. But there may be a further influence. If EU imports to UK become more expensive (tit for tat tariffs) the the cost of living in UK could rise significantly, thus reducing disposable income, thus reducing domestic consumption, thus jeopardising further job losses.
In jeopardy means that they could be lost. It doesn't mean they would be lost or devastation. It means there is a possibility of them being lost.

Now I'm finding your argumentative approach of regurgitating the same old questions and incorrect statements, time and time again, extremely tedious.
You were the same with the EU Parliamentary Legislative Initiative subject. You were the same with the VAT rates question. Now you're doing exactly the same with the trade question.
The responses are going to be the same. Your revolving door technique of repetitive, circulatory arguments demonstrates little but your inability to accept the inevitable . Ask your repetitive questions as many times as you like, you still won't receive the answers that you want!
The data will be the same, the documented evidence will be the same, the historical examples will be the same, the experienced advice will be the same.
The misguided arguments and disinformation of the Brexit-ers might vary a bit, but it'll still be the same misguided disinformation.

You'll still be OUT and I'll still be IN.

Furthermore, if the UK votes to leave the regional bloc, a renegotiation of the two entities’ relationship will follow for a period of up to two years. This will likely prolong and compound uncertainty, which threatens the economy as activity ramps down until greater clarity emerges.
The uncertainty inherent in a Brexit scenario may spook fence-sitters and push them to side with the government’s position

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pound-may-rise-boe-governor-064300334.html

 

[JohnD]

...UK tax payer ... paid around £2500 in PAYE contributions...donated many times...extra work I do (unpaid...

but

...pay more ...than we get back...If that's not "throwing money away" then please tell me what is

So, Jock, you are "throwing money away" by your definition.

Jock doesn't mind "paying more than he gets back" and "throwing money away" in principle, he deploys the argument selectively when he just wants to bolster his anti-EU stance.