Replacement Boiler original thread locked !!

In court Ollski your level of competence to undertake the specific task which caused the incident will be tested in minute detail and the fact that you have a certificate saying you were tested for competence 4 years and 11 months ago will count for nothing I'm afraid.
 
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our guv'nor makes attend a two day refresher course on CCN1 every year

blooming handy has there are always changes
 
The issue of competence when faced with legal proceedings tests whether individuals really are competent or simply were when they got the certificate i.e. Some people treat certification as a costly headache which they must do to be able to work and others are professionals who constantly keep up with regs and new techniques etc. and embrace certification as a vehicle for maintaining professional standards.

The former would go straight to jail without passing GO (irrespective of their certificate) whilst the latter may not.
 
esra_ptrap said:
2. The essence of WS's post is factually correct though things are seldom so black and white (a fact WS often struggles with I think) ;)

I do not struggle with that at all. I am at a level higher than all here. If you have analytical skills the grey can be honed to black and white, or to a point of very little grey. I don't go on opinions. Many here can't even put together a list of advantages and disadvantages when comparing systems, products, etc. Far too much arm waving and "I always have done it this way".

3. WS is not correct about competency only being judgeable on results

That is correct. How else do you judge it? A man turns up at the door on his first job with a new shiny Corgi badge after his few months course. He has never done it before. That badge says he is "competent", having never lifted a spanner in a house? Nah. He is judged to be competent on his actions - on the final job.

Pre qualifications of some sort means nothing. That just means you can start to practice - get you the job. Competency is your actions.
 
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Your analytical skills need honing WS as you are only seeing what you want to see probably clouded by your arrogance towards other contributors, many of which may have significantly more experience than you.

I am at a level higher than all here

Really? Interesting as you don't know the backgrounds of many of the people you are so quick to dismiss ... You wouldn't be David Icke would you?

If you are going to quote me at least quote me accurately and in context ...

Your Quote
WS is not correct about competency only being judgeable on results

What I actually said:
WS is not correct about competency only being judgeable on results after the event

As I said, many professions prove competancy BEFORE certification i.e. the old adage learn, watch, do under supervision (maybe many times in the case of a surgeon for example) then get certified to do alone.

Do you seriously believe that airline pilots are not considered competent to fly an aircraft until they have flown their first flight with passengers? Their competency is proved long before action.

I'm not saying Corgi does it this way but that would be a failing of Corgi and not the ability to prove competency before action.
 
In many areas of "qualification" the emphasis is on doing the task by the book.

But look at the situation where a qualified person is presented with a scenario which is not in "The Book"

If the scenario is not covered in "The Book" then the qualification is not applicable for that scenario.

At this point most qualified people do step back from the task.

Some may go ahead and find something in the book that is a best fit to the scenario and then go ahead using that part of the book. It may not be the right method for the scenario.

The people needed in this scenario are as Water System says those with analytical skills who can design a new safe and effective procedure for the scenario. These sort of people who may have written "The Book" but did not at the time foresee this particular scenario. Often these people are not qualified and because they are not qualified they have more open minds to look at and consider innovation in procedures.

Bernard
Sharnbrook
 
esra_ptrap said:
Your analytical skills need honing WS

They are 100%

as you are only seeing what you want to see probably clouded by your arrogance towards other contributors, many of which may have significantly more experience than you.

I objectively see it as it is. I touch of arrogance can come with 100% certaintly.

I am at a level higher than all here

Really? Interesting as you don't know the backgrounds of many of the people you are so quick to dismiss

I am graduate design engineer not an arm wacing plumber.

... You wouldn't be David Icke would you?

And all those repiles with big heads - a few on this forum I see.

As I said, many professions prove competancy BEFORE certification i.e. the old adage learn, watch, do under supervision (maybe many times in the case of a surgeon for example) then get certified to do alone.

That is not competency. That is qualifications. A ticket into the job. Competency is your results.

Do you seriously believe that airline pilots are
not considered competent to fly an aircraft until they have flown their first flight with passengers?

Yes. Being all alone and in charge is different to being No. 2.

Their competency is proved long before action.

Doctors, pilots and a few others have serious OJT under supervision to assess the future competence of the man or woman when finally let loose on the public.

Their ability to fly a plane or play with peopel's bodies has been assessed under supervision. The on-the-job/theory narrows it down until the final days he is No.1. Being 100% competent only comes when he is No. 1 in the plane.

I'm not saying Corgi does it this way but that would be a failing of Corgi and not the ability to prove competency before action.

Corgi is a joke and short changes the public. The old Gas Board 5 year apprenticeships were similar to the pilot, doctor supervised OJT/theory setup, which can whittle out potential incompetence before being let loose on the public. Nevertheless, competence is only proven by results, not by prior supervised OJT or qualifications or whatever.

Competence in doing the job alone and prior qualifications are not the same thing.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

bernardgreen said:
In many areas of "qualification" the emphasis is on doing the task by the book.
...
...
The people needed in this scenario are as Water System says those with analytical skills who can design a new safe and effective procedure for the scenario. These sort of people who may have written "The Book" but did not at the time foresee this particular scenario. Often these people are not qualified and because they are not qualified they have more open minds to look at and consider innovation in procedures.

Bernard
Sharnbrook

Nice post Bernard. Analytical skills can come more naturally to some than others. People who have been educated to "think", as the UK higher education system encourages, tend to be better at this. Unfortunately in the education levels under, they are "trained". They are trained to "do" things.

Look at the British. Great inventors, scientists etc. At the top level unmatched over 200 years. Yet on the lower levels others countries walk all over us.

The UK system is geared for the higher levels to think and the lower levels to do. It is ingrained in the education system.
 
Standard definition of competence:
Competence is a standardized requirement for an individual to properly perform a specific job. It encompasses a combination of knowledge, skills and behavior utilised to improve performance. More generally, competence is the state or quality of being adequately or well qualified, having the ability to perform a specific role.

I said:
As I said, many professions prove competancy BEFORE certification i.e. the old adage learn, watch, do under supervision (maybe many times in the case of a surgeon for example) then get certified to do alone.
You said:
That is not competency. That is qualifications. A ticket into the job. Competency is your results.

You are incorrect, this is competency in its truest form.

Both you and Bernard are confusing qualification with competency, they are two totally different things.

You study for qualification prior to practically proving competence to get certified to undertake a real world task.

I agree that qualifications are the ticket to the job and prove nothing but pre-proven competency prior to action is the vital check and balance common to all high risk professions ... And works exceptionally well.

In my, not insignificant, experience of engineering I have learnt that a successful project needs a very fine balance of analytical design and practical on-the-ground skill to succeed ... Very good designs fail spectacularly when implemented badly but, equally, very good engineers cannot implement poor designs ... I've seen both cases many times.

One final note from me to WS ... As I've already said, incorrect assumptions about the backgrounds, skills and abilities of your fellow contributors on an anonymous forum such as this can have unexpected consequences. ;)
 
esra_ptrap said:
[1] Both you and Bernard are confusing qualification with competency, they are two totally different things.

[2] You study for qualification prior to practically proving competence to get certified to undertake a real world task.

I am fully aware that qualification and competencyare two VERY different things.

Some competent people can sit an exam and/or practical assessment and pass without the study because these people have the ability to analyse the questions and devise the answers.

Qualification is showing you can remember the lessons upto the end of the exam / assessment.

Competency shows you can later apply what you learnt in those lessons.

The other skill is that required to devise the content and form of the lessons and the testing of the candidates.

Perhaps I am un-usual in that with my wife we self built our house. The the brick chimney, the roof battens and slates were the only things we did not do with our own hands. And yes I did the gas carcass that was tested and passed by Brit Gas.


Bernard
Sharnbrook
 
esra_ptrap said:
Standard definition of competence:
Competence is a standardized requirement for an individual to properly perform a specific job. It encompasses a combination of knowledge, skills and behavior utilised to improve performance. More generally, competence is the state or quality of being adequately or well qualified, having the ability to perform a specific role.

"having the ability to perform a specific role". The results of the ability matter in peforming the "specific role". It is the only way to assess competence. The ultimate assessment.

You are incorrect, this is competency in its truest form.

Competency is your actions - the results. It is that simple.

Both you and Bernard are confusing qualification with competency, they are two totally different things.

I cetainly am not, read what I wrote.

I agree that qualifications are the ticket to the job and prove nothing but pre-proven competency prior to action is the vital check and balance

That narrows down probabilities that the person is competent. It is not the "vital" check at all. The ultimate vital check is the results of the persons actions in doing the job - nothing else.

In my, not insignificant, experience of engineering I have learnt that a successful project needs a very fine balance of analytical design and practical on-the-ground skill to succeed ... Very good designs fail spectacularly when implemented badly but, equally, very good engineers cannot implement poor designs ... I've seen both cases many times.

In large projects it is in layers. The creative people at the top and layers of implementation right down to the hands on installation and final commssioning, which is the bottom layer. Those at the bottom know little of the top and don't even meet those people.

A heating fitter is all those layers. Most fail at the creative top layer, only doing what they have done for 20 years. Arm wavers.

One final note from me to WS ... As I've already said, incorrect assumptions about the backgrounds, skills and abilities of your fellow contributors on an anonymous forum such as this can have unexpected consequences. ;)

Unfortunately most so-called professionals here are arm wavers.
 
It's quite obvious from my very limited exposure to you that you are a propellor head (or a process-driven pointy head) who thinks a lot and comes up with great ideas but actually achieves very little because you have the interpersonal skills of the Kray twins and could never motivate anyone to do anything in the real world ... It's easy to see why everyone considers you such an oddity.

A shame really as you're obviously quite knowledgeable (in theoretical terms at least) and have made some extremely useful contributions to many of the posts I've read but I doubt you'll ever see eye to eye with anyone who doesn't share your superior? point of view.

As a result of this, many of the posts you're involved in become more of a personal slanging match than anything constructive and, to be honest, it's really not worth the effort.

Perhaps you should consider politics, you can argue your case until you're blue in the face with someone equally intractible and, whilst you won't achieve anything, it'll probably make you happy.

I've nothing more to contribute to this issue so feel free to post something equally ludicrous in the knowledge that you will not get a response. :LOL:

Do it quick though because it's probably only a matter of time before your account is deleted the way you're going ;)

Moderator 4

i suggest that you pack in the squabbling and perhaps try to help the original poster. Its only a matter of time before they all get deleted.
 
Without wishing to hijack or move away from the original post subject or go too far off topic...



Esra_ptrap - Its taken me a while but I've just clicked your name (I'm slow on the take-up). Mint.
 
Moderator 4 said:
i suggest that you pack in the squabbling and perhaps try to help the original poster. Its only a matter of time before they all get deleted.

This post was moved to general discussion by one of your buddies presumably to allow errrm general discussion? so why don't you get back in your box.

I've never come across so many arsey mods as on this site do they send you all on a "how to be a pillock course?"

MOD 2

desist or it goes the same way as the last one without any further warning
 
Water Systems said:
I am graduate design engineer not an arm wacing plumber.

So? I have worked with many such people, and some who are not graduates. While some of the graduates were clever, some were not, just as I found amongst the non-graduates. However, ALL of the REALLY clever ones were generally fairly modest. The arrogant ones were often mediocre behind the facade.


Look at the British. Great inventors, scientists etc. At the top level unmatched over 200 years. Yet on the lower levels others countries walk all over us.

How deluded you are. This is hardly an objective view. There were many non-British who were outstanding at the time, and are the foundation for those who came after. Leeuwenhoek was far ahead in microscopy for well over 200 years, and he started in the 1600s. Er, ... he was Dutch. Marie Curie? um... not exactly British. Neils Bhor, damn it! he was Scandanavian...

The list could go on, just stop making unfounded, questionable statements.


Moderator 4

i suggest that you pack in the squabbling and perhaps try to help the original poster. Its only a matter of time before they all get deleted.

Is this bold the telltale of someone beginning with R? No matter, since the topic has been moved to general discussion it is open house, so the comment is irrelevant (not to mention patronising).
 
Mod 2, you are seriously out of order here. This is in the general discussion forum and nothing which has been posted in the entire thread breaches in any way any of the forum rules. The only remotely provocative comments are from the mods ... What's going on?

MOD 2

yes general discussion

NOT GENERAL BICKERING

which was why it was moved in the first place
 
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