Scottish Govt consultation to regulate "electrician"

It's all a load of crap!
You can be qualified (having done some courses) and be crap, you can be time served and be crap, you can join a scheme by paying a little money and be crap, you can be in a union and be crap. You can be good at what you do or not. No one will know until you actually get to do it.
 
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It's all a load of crap! You can be qualified (having done some courses) and be crap, you can be time served and be crap, you can join a scheme by paying a little money and be crap, you can be in a union and be crap. You can be good at what you do or not. No one will know until you actually get to do it.
Well, as I've been saying, "someone would know" if there were strict and proper 'regulation' - but that's not going to happen, so it's a a very bad idea (for reasons I've voiced).

Worse, 'strict and proper regulation' has to include some sort of monitoring of real-world work actually done. A person may be genuinely very well qualified, and perfectly capable of doing things very competently (e.g. when being formally 'assessed') but, for reasons of laziness or whatever, may not behave 'competently' in their day-to-day work.

Kind Regards, John
 
It's all a load of crap!
You can be qualified (having done some courses) and be crap, you can be time served and be crap, you can join a scheme by paying a little money and be crap, you can be in a union and be crap. You can be good at what you do or not. No one will know until you actually get to do it.

That is exactly right!

A person can spend their entire apprenticeship with brain in neutral and learn nothing very useful at all. I came across many of them during my working life. Even paper qualifications may mean nothing at all, what always counted was sheer ability and thorough understanding of the job.
 
No one will know until you actually get to do it.

And in most cases even then they won’t know you were crap, and even if someone does one day look at it and see how crap you were, you still got paid!
 
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The ECS card was gov sponsored con,
Couldn't agree more, for a start there are 300 questions with their answers listed in the book which you are required to buy, then you are given a laptop and 30 minutes to remember only 30 answers which are basically unrelated to your work.
when it started around 2000ish, we were told the card meant the holder was skilled in what ever trade.
That's not how I remember it, I've always believed it to be a H&S ticket, supposedly tailored towards a trades requirements.
The first job I did after the introduction, i had to check all the cards, and of the first half dozen 3 listed qualifications and 3 didn't. I queried with the ecs people this and was told it was up to the card holder to list/or not to list his qualifications. And then the guy reluctantly advised me the cards had nothing to with work skills, they only confirm that the person is qualified in H&S aspects of his job, and at the time no one checked the veracity. That's why they are ignored for electrical work, and they are just to satisfy insurance companies.
 
There was a video of the interviews before the English Part P was relaxed, the against Part P stated what was the percentage of people under 65 who get alzheimer's of some sort, and the percentage of electricians thrown off the scheme, and it showed there were not as many people thrown off the schemes as would be expected due to people getting alzheimer's, OK I know people will voluntary give up work when they get alzheimer's, however the numbers thrown off are still very low.

Next question was if the scheme providers talked to each other and black listed electricians who had been thrown off the scheme, and were told it would be illegal to do that, it clearly happens with gas safe as there is only one organisation controlling it, but not with Part P.

As to the safety exams, I had to take and pass the exam with my last job, and I had to answer what they wanted to hear, not the real answer, clearly as an electricians there is a procedure when a faulty item is found, it has to go on the out of service or faulty appliance register, and be stored in a quarantine area, I got in a lot of trouble with HSE for not locking a quarantine area and was well aware of what needed to be done after that.

However for the question what to do if you find a faulty appliance there was option to tick the correct answer, the same with cable heights over walkways and roadways, you could not possibly have given correct answer, there was option to give it.

It is the same with the BS 7671 exams, they ask silly questions, I know now changed, but for so long the "and others" difference between skilled and competent was asked, why, does it really matter? We are not really interested in the ability of the candidate to read, what we want is there ability to interpret what they read.

So with
(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit
Question is does this refer to emergency lighting, or needing to run extension leads up down stairs with a failure of one circuit?
(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced by equipment in normal operation
The question is what is considered as "excessive protective conductor currents" with a 30 mA RCD is excessive protective conductor currents 9 mA, 15 mA or some other figure?

And I will admit I have still not got a clamp on ammeter able to measure the 9 mA which is considered by many as the limit.

Forms and exams can push us to do the right thing, working through an EICR form prompted one to make the required checks, and working through past exam papers also prompted one to find the right answer, be it how did we arrive at 106 meters of 2.5 mm cable in a ring final or any other thing, it is the interpretations that matters, not the ability to quote 314.1 or any other number.

The big problem is sole traders, as an electrician working with other electricians we discuss what we should be doing, again we a prompted to think about what we are doing, so likely make less mistakes, the government paper on landlord EICR talked about 10 years experience, but I gained more experience as a foreman than years on the tools, as I was involved with all errors, and problems.

And the I always do it this way, because that was how I was taught 50 years ago, does not really cut the mustard. But in some things it is true, I have always done it that way, and never considered the pros and cons, like splitting sockets on ring final up/down, I always did it that way, until a young wiper-snapper questioned it, pointing out split side to side gives a better loop impedance and means if the circuit fails then temporary supplies with extension leads do not need to run up/down stairs, and he was right, but until he pointed it out, never even considered it.

As said it is the working with others that often highlights our errors, and no body is perfect, which is where the sole trader gets unstuck, just resent I saw a web site advertising some ones work, showing a metal consumer unit with two glands for the tails from the meter with no saw cut between them, the guy clearly had no idea what he was doing was wrong. And I can't find a reference in BS 7671 to say you need a saw cut between the holes, if it were a DC supply it would not matter.

But how can you write a law to say an electrician must do a journeyman and work with others for a set time? We know it makes sense, but that brings us back to the 7 year apprenticeship and that could only happen if they leave school at 14 to start the apprenticeship.
 
One of my friends worked for a plant hire company and one of his duties was inspect and repair plant so he got the answer wrong when he got the 'what do you do if you find a damaged drill' question.
 
The current consultation is actually quite late in the process. There was an earlier "call for evidence" which resulted in this report:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/regulation-electricians-scotland/

I'm disappointed that I didn't hear about this at the time. Apparently they went to some lengths to get people to comment but, to quote from Appendix 1 (which seems to have been slightly mis-formatted; I think I'm quoting it as they intended):

In addition, profiles were created in related online forums such as ElectriciansForums, DIYNot Electrics forum, Ultitmate Handyman - Electric Forum UK and DIY Doctor - Electrics Forum as well as LandLordzone and Property Tribes. In each case, however, forum rules either prohibited the posting of information on the Call for Evidence as non-permitted advertising or required a track record of regular participation in the relevant forum. Emails to the forum administrators and moderators outlining the purpose of the Call for Evidence and asking for permission to post the Call for Evidence link and description received no reply.​

That's a shame, isn't it?

This would have been in early 2019 I think.

Would any moderators like to comment?
 
But in some things it is true, I have always done it that way, and never considered the pros and cons, like splitting sockets on ring final up/down, I always did it that way, until a young wiper-snapper questioned it, pointing out split side to side gives a better loop impedance and means if the circuit fails then temporary supplies with extension leads do not need to run up/down stairs, and he was right, but until he pointed it out, never even considered it.

When it is split by floors, you know exactly where you are when working on a circuit - isolate first floor and all the sockets are dead. The only other safe way, is to mark sockets up with the circuit MCB they are on, as you often find in commercial / industrial premises.
 
When it is split by floors, you know exactly where you are when working on a circuit - isolate first floor and all the sockets are dead. The only other safe way, is to mark sockets up with the circuit MCB they are on, as you often find in commercial / industrial premises.
When the home is in the main split upper and lower people get lazy and take risks, so any odd socket which is not as expected can catch people out, but when side to side either both are switched off, or people are very careful to ensure the socket they are working on is switched off.

In the main to isolate either means all power off, or half power off, in this house to isolate would mean all power off, so it would make no difference which circuit a socket was fed from, if isolated it would be off, OK I can switch off at the RCBO but that is not isolation.

I had the argument with my son, who said people expect if they have one socket dead on a floor, they will all be dead, an I pointed out to him very few houses is that true with, my old house the immersion heater feed had been reused as socket outlets, and there was one socket on the cooker supply, parents house whole of kitchen has separate circuits to rest of house, and this house 6 circuits feed sockets and only three floors, so clearly can't switch off any one RCBO and isolate floor.

So clearly when spitting by the floor it causes danger as people start to assume rather than test as they should do.
 

I had the argument with my son, who said
people expect if they have one socket dead on a floor, they will all be dead, an I pointed out to him very few houses is that true with, my old house the immersion heater feed had been reused as socket outlets, and there was one socket on the cooker supply, parents house whole of kitchen has separate circuits to rest of house, and this house 6 circuits feed sockets and only three floors, so clearly can't switch off any one RCBO and isolate floor.

So clearly when spitting by the floor it causes danger as people start to assume rather than test as they should do.
I have mooted exactly this point on here before and I left the thread with my tail between my legs due to the flack. Marking circuits on sockets is an excellent idea but the average house occupier does not like labels.

But of course houses have been wired up/down for years so people will expect that and habit is a difficult thing to change.
 
In the main to isolate either means all power off, or half power off, in this house to isolate would mean all power off, so it would make no difference which circuit a socket was fed from, if isolated it would be off, OK I can switch off at the RCBO but that is not isolation.

Entire system or just all sockets, is so rarely an option for most jobs in working commercial or industrial locations.
 
Entire system or just all sockets, is so rarely an option for most jobs in working commercial or industrial locations.
Rarer than chocolate teapots or fireguards, and all too often isolating the circuit you're working on is also difficult.
 
Entire system or just all sockets, is so rarely an option for most jobs in working commercial or industrial locations.
I would agree we are permitted with a TN supply to only switch line, and it is common to do that, but that is not isolation, and the big thing is can you instruct a non electrician well enough to know when he can switch only line, and when he needs both line and neutral switching, i.e. both live wires.

I would agree proving dead is not the problem, the problem is ensuring it stays dead, so how does one ensure the cable is not supplied from a timer or thermostat unless you have started with it live, or have detailed plan?

Had it with this house, cable in flat under house brown, Black, grey and bare earth, cables in house red, yellow, blue and bare earth, no junction box found only two wires ring out, need to take a chance, as don't want to remove plaster and tiles to find join, so used with 12 volt DC only, low current and cross fingers not connected to any 230 volt supply. To date nothing gone bang.

I think at 12 volt DC reasonable safe, it connects the thermostat/central heating control to the heat link, it was only way other than wireless I could see to control the heating when one wire not connected for central heating and domestic hot water. I think very unlikely there is a hidden branch, more likely simple junction box. So yes some times we take a chance, but still feel it should not matter what socket comes from which RCBO with proving dead the clue is in the word "proving" and we should do all we can to work out where what we are working on is supplied from.

And since socket split side to side reduces the loop impedance and removes the need for extension leads on the stairs when waiting for a fault to be found, it does seem the best option, not that one has any option post wiring, you have to use what you have, the only problem is when lights split up/down and sockets split side to side to "(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit (iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced by equipment in normal operation" means 2 RCD's do not cut the mustard. So has to in some way have at least three RCD's. And I see it as penny pinching when sockets are split upper and lower just to save the cost of one RCBO.
 

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