Spur - socket and Fused Spur from Ring?

Yes, it's the Approved Document which actually gives recommended figures, but Part L itself requires that there be reasonable provision for the conservation of power - and a 400W floodlight in domestic property might well be considered not to constitute such reasonable provision.
Again, back to arguments about what constitutes reasonable, given the way the building regulations themselves are worded. If I need 400W to provide adequate illuminatation over a given area for my purposes, I would argue that it's reasonable. Of course, it may not be so reasonable if I were to leave that 400W on at times when I didn't need the illumination.

But that's rather academic anyway - Who would be crazy enough to involve the local council just to add an exterior floodlight? Besides, surely it's not notifiable work anyway, unless being provisioned on a new circuit?

In some senses you're right, but that is not the nature of rules, regulations and legislation. Apart from anything else, in the absence of detail, any accusation of failure to comply with a 'bottom line' regulation such as you suggest (which is very similar to Part P) becomes a matter of opinions.
Which was really my point. Are regulations supposed to be a set of rules developed by those who (supposedly) are competent to draft them as a minimum standard which must be achieved, or are they supposed to be a vague "do what you think best based upon your own knowledge and experience" suggestion? If the former, then they need to cover all situations in as near-complete detail as possible, although obviously that's an ideal which can never be fully realized in a changing world. If the latter, then why do they still contain certain very specific "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not" instructions?
 
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But that's rather academic anyway - Who would be crazy enough to involve the local council just to add an exterior floodlight? Besides, surely it's not notifiable work anyway, unless being provisioned on a new circuit?
Yes, but (a) excessive intrusive outdoor lighting is something which neighbours, or even passers-by and 'do-gooders' might complain to the council about, and (b) it could be part of a project (e.g. building an extension) which did require notification.
Which was really my point. Are regulations supposed to be a set of rules developed by those who (supposedly) are competent to draft them as a minimum standard which must be achieved, or are they supposed to be a vague "do what you think best based upon your own knowledge and experience" suggestion?
In practice, most most regulations attempt to get as close to the former as is possible/practicable - since, as I said before, in the absence of a explicit definition of what is the 'minimum acceptable standard' If the former, then they need to cover all situations in as near-complete detail as possible, policing the regulations (i.e. determining whether someone has done work to an acceptable standard) becomes a much more tedious and messy business.

In terms of many things, explicit regulations (which, as you say, one hopes/expects will be drafted competently/explicitly) make sense. It would be a chaotic, and probably unsatisfactory, situation in which each electrician (and, indeed non-electrician) was free to make their own decision about such things as what cable CSA was acceptable in a given situation (with a givenn installation method), what disconnection times should be achieved and how large a hole in an enclosure was permissible etc. etc. etc. One of the problems with reliance on "the knowledge and experience" of the person involved is that that only really works (if ever) in relation to a highly regulated profession. It might be reasonable in relation to airline pilots or doctors, but not really in relation to electrical work, the requirements for knowledge skill and experience of people undertaking such work being only defined in the vaguest of terms.

I'll probably get slated again (maybe on Monday!) for saying negative things about electricians, but I do believe that, particularly given the nature of modern training (or, in some cases, 'training') at least a significant proportion of people undertaking electrical work would be pretty lost if they had to make their own decisions about things such as I mentioned (cable CSAs, disconnection times and IP issues).

It could just be that, in moving things into 'informative Appendices, 'they' (JPEL/64) are attempting to move in the direction of what they regard as a reasonable compromise - those who need/prefer to have specific guidance can then 'rely on' what is in those Appendices (as if they were 'regulations'), whilst others can use their knowledge, skill and experience to make their own decisions about details of things that are not mandated by the regs themselves. There's even some of that sort of 'choice' built into the regulations themselves. In determining the required CSA for a protective conductor, one can either undertake an adiabatic calculation or, if one is unable/disinclined to do that, one can work with the tabulated (and, generally, appreciably larger) 'default' values provided.

Kind Regards, John
 
This is another aspect of ring final design about which the regs contain no explicit rules
Yes they do.

Such circuits are deemed to meet the requirements of Regulation 433.1.1 if the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable is not less than 20A and if, under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit is unlikely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable.
 
If I need 400W to provide adequate illuminatation over a given area for my purposes, I would argue that it's reasonable.
If you are correct then you would have no problems.


But that's rather academic anyway - Who would be crazy enough to involve the local council just to add an exterior floodlight? Besides, surely it's not notifiable work anyway, unless being provisioned on a new circuit?
OK - I said it was notifiable - I can't remember the exact details, and don't have time right now to look. It's quite possible that I'm misrememberifying.

BUT - if it is notifiable then whatever you may think of the law you must not advice people to break it.
 
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This is another aspect of ring final design about which the regs contain no explicit rules
Yes they do. Such circuits are deemed to meet the requirements of Regulation 433.1.1 if the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable is not less than 20A and if, under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit is unlikely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable.
I personally don't regard "... under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit is unlikely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable." as constituting "explicit rules"!

Unless all sockets were sufficiently distant from ends of the ring as to make it impossible that a load of 32A could result in >20A flowing in any part of the circuit, it would at best be an 'intelligent guess', and an individual opinion.

Kind Regards, John
 
If I need 400W to provide adequate illuminatation over a given area for my purposes, I would argue that it's reasonable.
If you are correct then you would have no problems.
Isn't there something in the Building Regs about light pollution? If so, then PBC's 400W light would have to be carefully positioned and oriented so the light from it did not spill outside his property.
BAS, I'm sure you've posted about that previously.
 
This is another aspect of ring final design about which the regs contain no explicit rules
Yes they do. Such circuits are deemed to meet the requirements of Regulation 433.1.1 if the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable is not less than 20A and if, under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit is unlikely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable.
I personally don't regard "... under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit is unlikely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable." as constituting "explicit rules"!

Unless all sockets were sufficiently distant from ends of the ring as to make it impossible that a load of 32A could result in >20A flowing in any part of the circuit, it would at best be an 'intelligent guess', and an individual opinion.

Kind Regards, John
Don't you think that the latitude implicit in the words "unlikely" and "for long periods" negates your desire to make it "impossible"?
 
JohnW2 said:
I personally don't regard "... under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit is unlikely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable." as constituting "explicit rules"!... Unless all sockets were sufficiently distant from ends of the ring as to make it impossible that a load of 32A could result in >20A flowing in any part of the circuit, it would at best be an 'intelligent guess', and an individual opinion.
Don't you think that the latitude implicit in the words "unlikely" and "for long periods" negates your desire to make it "impossible"?
I have no desire to make it impossible - my point was simply that as soon as it ceases to be impossible, whether the current in any part of the circuit is "likely to exceed Iz for long periods" it becomes an individual judgement - which, as I said (in response to BAS's assertion), in my book does not constitute "explicit rules".

It is a simple matter of physics that if there are not at least three 13A outlets within about 37.5% of total ring length from one end of the ring, then it is impossible for current in any part of the circuit to exceed 20A for even short periods, let along long ones. If, as is commonly the case, one has 2.5mm² 'clipped direct' cable (Iz=27A), then it is impossible for current in any part of the circuit to ever exceed the Iz of the cable unless there are at least three 13A outlets within about 16% of the ring length from one end.

If there is at least those number of socket outlets within the specified distances from and end of a ring, then it becomes a matter of individual judgement as to (a) whether it is likely that the Iz of any of the cable will ever be exceeded and (b) whether, if that happens, how likely it is that the situation will persist "for long periods" - which, as above, I cannot really regard as "explicit rules"

Kind Regards, John
 
I personally don't regard "... under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit is unlikely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable." as constituting "explicit rules"!
I personally regard it as explicitly telling you that under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit must not be likely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable.
 
I personally don't regard "... under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit is unlikely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable." as constituting "explicit rules"!
I personally regard it as explicitly telling you that under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit must not be likely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable.
You know jolly well what I am saying, and I haven't got the time at the moment to have a debate about the meaning of words.

Kind Regards, John
 
I have no desire to make it impossible - my point was simply that as soon as it ceases to be impossible, whether the current in any part of the circuit is "likely to exceed Iz for long periods" it becomes an individual judgement
No - it becomes a design issue which the designer has to address, and has to do so using reasonable skill and judgement, and be sure to the best of his knowledge and belief that he has ensured that under the intended conditions of use, the load current in any part of the circuit is unlikely to exceed for long periods the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the cable.

If he cannot do that because he doesn't understand how to do it, then he has no business doing design.

If he cannot do that because he cannot establish well enough what the intended conditions of use are then he has no business specifying a ring final.


which, as I said (in response to BAS's assertion), in my book does not constitute "explicit rules".
The regulations are not supposed to be a cookbook, tick-the-boxes exercise. They are not supposed to facilitate people doing things without a full and genuine understanding of what and why.


... which, as above, I cannot really regard as "explicit rules"
I think you must be using your own definition of "explicit".
 
You know jolly well what I am saying, and I haven't got the time at the moment to have a debate about the meaning of words.
If you do find the time, then instead of debating it go off and find it out.
 

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