Strange Socket Wiring
- Thread starter Bowness72
- Start date
I'm not sure why, surely they are just merely providing an earth terminal and its not up to them whether you make use of it or not 
Mind you, round that way they don't really care too much anyway, ask ding about the one he found a few weeks before christmas...
Mind you, round that way they don't really care too much anyway, ask ding about the one he found a few weeks before christmas...
You're ALL slow - I told the OP that long before the photo arrived!
Local knowledge, see.. can't beat it.
Thanks for all the input.
I have an uncle who is a retired electrician so might get him to have a quick look for his amusement but will have to get someone up to date to do the work.
If I got a spark in to give me a new modern consumer unit, would that sort out the main problem ?, apart from the unknown nature of everything else that might have been bodged.
Roughly how much work involved and how much cash would I be looking at ?
I have an uncle who is a retired electrician so might get him to have a quick look for his amusement but will have to get someone up to date to do the work.
If I got a spark in to give me a new modern consumer unit, would that sort out the main problem ?, apart from the unknown nature of everything else that might have been bodged.
Roughly how much work involved and how much cash would I be looking at ?
At least YEDL have provided an MET on this property!
Makes a change from a BS3036 cutout
Ahh the good old Leeds incommer (What, no earth!)
Makes a change from a BS3036 cutout
Ahh the good old Leeds incommer (What, no earth!)
To my untrained eye that one looks even worse than mine.
By the way, the extension lead above my fuse box is to my adjacent freezer from a kitchen socket.
I have already tried to identify the fuses/circuits and you will be surprised to hear they are far from what you would expect. Haven't quite got to the bottom of all of them yet though.
By the way, the extension lead above my fuse box is to my adjacent freezer from a kitchen socket.
I have already tried to identify the fuses/circuits and you will be surprised to hear they are far from what you would expect. Haven't quite got to the bottom of all of them yet though.
That's standard... it's also feeding next door, so if you're away and they blow their main fuse...Bowness72 said:
Told you!
It needs a good going over. A replacement consumer unit may well be your best option as it will include a full inspection and test - expect to fork out around £300 plus the cost of any necessary remedial work, such as upgrading the bonding to your incoming services.
K
kai
Service Fuse.
It appears that even the service fuse was installed upside down, and that it was converted to PME connection (the earth connection bonds the neutral side along with the armouring on the service cable).
It appears that even the service fuse was installed upside down, and that it was converted to PME connection (the earth connection bonds the neutral side along with the armouring on the service cable).
note that although many changes to electrics needs registered electricions or building control now (see part p in the wiki), anyone is alowed to upgrade the bonding -so your uncle may come in use here, or ask and the good folks here will guide you through to save a few bob and put it towards the CU etc!dingbat said:
If I get someone to replace the cu, and they test everything but say it needs a rewire, would they refuse to replace the cu without doing everything ? because obviously that is a hell of a lot of work, time, mess and money which I dont have either of at the moment.
I would be very surprised if an electrician agreed to replacing only the CU. The cables in your photo are not fitted in a systematic manner and no-one, not even you, knows what the load is on each cable. The electrician will need to know the sizes of mcbs to fit to each cable, etc.
Returning to your original question: the system is working OK, but you want to add some sockets. Well, its not safe, so don't add anything before you sort out the earthing. If you do nothing else, you must do that.
Returning to your original question: the system is working OK, but you want to add some sockets. Well, its not safe, so don't add anything before you sort out the earthing. If you do nothing else, you must do that.
This business about the earthing is confusing me a bit because I haven't got the expertise you guys have. The reason I first started investigating the system myself was that over the christmas holidays I fixed an existing socket to the wall and then tested the faceplate fixing screws which to my alarm showed as live. After panicking for a bit I read up a bit and then bought a plug-in socket tester which said there was no earth on two sockets on one circuit. I knew there had been a dodgy connection made behind my kitchen cupboards using connector blocks and taped up. I removed the tape and found a broken bare earth wire. I then cut the cable back and remade the junction using a junction box (including sheathing the earth wire). After that both sockets showed ok so I took that as meaning they were actually earthed, or is my plug-in tester being fooled in someway. Sorry if I am making hard work of this.
Its possible that there is an earth through an alternative path, I can't actually see any main bonding in your pic, and by the lack of that, I would also suggest that there would probably be no supplimentary bonding in the bathroom either.
So its probably likely that its through the control electrics of the boiler, or the immersion heater, both these appliances have an earth wire connected and are bolted to pipes which run probably run through the ground
The problems in a purely physical way of looking at it (forgetting regs, etc) are the impedance of it is likely to be pretty high, which means a fuse might not blow, and secondly its going to be thin, thats bad enough if the impedance is low and its all over in the drop of a hat, but with something that I suppose could be passing 20-30A indefinatly until someone notices it could easy set on fire (of course it could be much higher impedance than ~ 10 ohms, but we just don't know), and of course the path could disappear if plastic pipe is fitted at any time
So this is probably how your socket tester was fooled (They are easy to fool, in certain borrowed neutral situations for example you can have it telling you that you have live and earth reversed
)
As to changing the CU, well it depends on the electrician, no one will work on it and leave it with major defeats, like missing main earths and missing main bonding, etc, but less major defeats could just be recorded, changing a CU is working on every circuit, so he has got to test every modified circuit and check that it is basically safe, but there could be stuff slightly wrong with them thats not dangerous that he just notes it as fixing it would not be feasable (lighting circuit with cable with no earth in, supplying only double insulated fittings for example), or stuff that he misses (flying splice with choc block in floor void for example), he is signing for an alteration, so its not quite the same as signing to say he installed things, but he still has to fully test things, its all about striking the right balence, a new CU with RCD makes things safer, but the electrician at least has a duty of care to tell you about dodgy stuff, and if its too bad and you say no to extra stuff he'll want to avoid being the 'last man in'
Also a shiney new CU means the installation looks a lot better to the untrained eye, and can lead to future owners being deluded as to what its really like, etc (there probably is no better way of hiding a dodgy installation from prospective buyers - not that I condone this, but I certainly know it happens from time to time, the stories crop up on forums like this when people find it in a family member's new house... )
Its less than clear cut, and I hope this has gone someway to explaining the jusgement process behind things, of course it varies between electricians, some don't do CU changes at all for example because they don't want to call it, etc
So its probably likely that its through the control electrics of the boiler, or the immersion heater, both these appliances have an earth wire connected and are bolted to pipes which run probably run through the ground
The problems in a purely physical way of looking at it (forgetting regs, etc) are the impedance of it is likely to be pretty high, which means a fuse might not blow, and secondly its going to be thin, thats bad enough if the impedance is low and its all over in the drop of a hat, but with something that I suppose could be passing 20-30A indefinatly until someone notices it could easy set on fire (of course it could be much higher impedance than ~ 10 ohms, but we just don't know), and of course the path could disappear if plastic pipe is fitted at any time
So this is probably how your socket tester was fooled (They are easy to fool, in certain borrowed neutral situations for example you can have it telling you that you have live and earth reversed
)As to changing the CU, well it depends on the electrician, no one will work on it and leave it with major defeats, like missing main earths and missing main bonding, etc, but less major defeats could just be recorded, changing a CU is working on every circuit, so he has got to test every modified circuit and check that it is basically safe, but there could be stuff slightly wrong with them thats not dangerous that he just notes it as fixing it would not be feasable (lighting circuit with cable with no earth in, supplying only double insulated fittings for example), or stuff that he misses (flying splice with choc block in floor void for example), he is signing for an alteration, so its not quite the same as signing to say he installed things, but he still has to fully test things, its all about striking the right balence, a new CU with RCD makes things safer, but the electrician at least has a duty of care to tell you about dodgy stuff, and if its too bad and you say no to extra stuff he'll want to avoid being the 'last man in'
Also a shiney new CU means the installation looks a lot better to the untrained eye, and can lead to future owners being deluded as to what its really like, etc (there probably is no better way of hiding a dodgy installation from prospective buyers
- not that I condone this, but I certainly know it happens from time to time, the stories crop up on forums like this when people find it in a family member's new house... )Its less than clear cut, and I hope this has gone someway to explaining the jusgement process behind things, of course it varies between electricians, some don't do CU changes at all for example because they don't want to call it, etc
Thanks everybody. I might get someone in to give me their proffesional opinion without asking them to sign anything off so they won't have any comeback. I will probably get under the floor and take a couple of floor boards up and see what I can see.
Cheers
Cheers
Bowness72 said:
Don't bother, really. I can tell you:
You'll find lots of junction boxes, possibly with mixed vintage/sized cables, unsleeved circuit protective conductors and cable run in shallow joist notches without protection.
When you're ready for the financial headache, let me know. I'm just up the road.
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