Supplementary bonding

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it seems that there is only one person in this thread on a horse. :rolleyes:

The regs are there to be complied with, if you are adding spots then you are extending a circuit.

Part P is a legal requirment, people are only talking about it because it will help YOU in the long run.

Electricity is dangerous, and no it is not rocket science, tell me, when you extend the lighting circuit and you test it, how will you know what insulation resistance readings to expect, along with r1r2 readings, Ze, Zs readings and RCD tripping times, will the readings be acceptable?
 
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...but those of us who are competent DIYers ...
But of course. :LOL:

...don't neccessarily have the time outside of our day jobs to learn the life-saving neccessities to sit alongside the more mundane money-saving niceties; which is why we visit here to get clear, concise, correct advice from those whose professional life is dedicated to electritioning.
And then take that advice? Or ignore it because it sounds rubbish/hard to do/expensive? :LOL:

Remember, if you'd worked harder at school you'd have chosen a different trade.
Nope. If I had used my brain then I would have decided to be a spark when I left school instead of dealing with the total drivel that I do in my day job... :LOL:
 
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Shame you had then to go on and add insult to injury by your further statements.

The reason I also printed on the other site was to spread the net of potential advice - not meant as an insult to the fragile egos who appear to inhabit this site.

There's an excellent thread elsewhere on this site about the attitudes of a minority of experts - which summarises far more eloquently than I can how poor the site, or at least this section of it, has become.

The truth of the matter is that electritioning is not rocket science - it is dangerous and technically complex - but those of us who are competent DIYers don't neccessarily have the time outside of our day jobs to learn the life-saving neccessities to sit alongside the more mundane money-saving niceties; which is why we visit here to get clear, concise, correct advice from those whose professional life is dedicated to electritioning. But it isn't rocket science, so it might be a good thing for a few of you to get down off your high-horses, drop your high-handed, self-agrandising, puffed-up, over-inflated super-ego-driven pusillanimous attitudes and resume normal life with the rest of us down here. Remember, if you'd worked harder at school you'd have chosen a different trade.

Feeling the humour now Holmslaw?


Hi, I have to say I do agree with that.

I dont come on this site and post often.. lol actually only really come on to look at some of the "picture of the week" kind of pics because alot of the time I find it funny.

But I have to say.. for a site, that was originally setup to help people with DIY.. every time I post on here, I get abuse shouted at me, and the general attitude particularly in this electrical section is quite bad.

If people dont know about Part P.. fine, tell them about it.. make them aware. But then if somebody chooses to ignore that, thats their choice.. they have been told, know the consequences and are knowlingly taking on the risk. If something goes wrong its their own fault.

But as incompetant as some people seem.. is it not better to help them carry out the work safely? and give the advice?... than to taunt them for beign incompetant and useless?.. because as im sure most of you are aware.. you can brand somebody incompetant as much as you like.. but they will still go ahead with carrying out the task they set out to do if they are hellbent on it, only difference is they are more likely to have an accident because when they went to seek advice they was given abuse... and in some cases the advice which could of been given, could of adverted an accident.

And also, education is always better than prevention.

If somebody doesnt know.. then teach them, again.. that is the purpose of this site.

may I quote from the homepage,

"DIY can be both challenging and rewarding - this is where DIYnot.com aims to help. Our expert teams have brought together hundreds of information pages. Why not Do It Yourself?"

I dont claim to be completely competant.

But, I have tried to gain the relevant knowledge to carry out tasks safely.. I invested in getting copies of the regulations, the guides.. Part P guide etc.. spent about £200 in total.

I got a fully calibrated test meter.

even starting a C&G qualification course soon.

and before undertaking anything I try to ensure im capable of completing the task properly, and to the relevant standard, and referencing the regulations to ensure its done properly.

I done a CU change, and re-wired my kitchen recently.. and did it through LAB.. who was completely happy with my work, and the electrician that came down even commented that id done the work to a high standard.

Previously ive done supervised work with the electrician making the final checks and checking in as the install was being done before signing it off.. and he was also happy with the work id done.

yet every time I come on here, just because i maybe unsure of something, ive been branded as useless and incompetant... which has then forced me to try and figure it out myself and hope its the correct way of doing it.

but I cant be "that" incompetant if electricians seem happy with the work im doing, and im actually trying to gain a proper knowledge and do things properly by testing and gaining the appropriate qualifications.

But things regarding electrical work are never going to get safer, declining knowledge to people who are genuinely incompetant, and dont have a clue if they are hellbent on carrying out the task.

simply because, if you tell them how to do it.. they will be more likely to follow what you say and try to do it properly.

but if you decline the knowledge and dont help, they will go out and do it anyway.. somebody telling them not to isnt going to stop them... and thats how you end up with a dangerous installation...

now im sure, this post will get abuse thrown at it.. as per usual... so im not even going to bother commenting further.
 
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RB I have to say I agree with you completely.

I too come here very often and actually enjoy reading the forums (ignoring the occasional sarcy/back biting topics) especially the sparks forums. Some may think us DIYers don't take in what you say, personally I do. I understand why standards/regulations are there and need to be adhered to but occasionally myself as I DIYer need to ask just to get a laymans understanding of that particular reg. I too have got for example some of the Part P docs, but occasionally they read worse than a Microsoft training guide and thats saying something!

Reading the tales and seeing pics of bad installs always makes me rethink just before I start a job at home. The wife gets driven crazy with my procastination and time taken in 'prep' but at the end of it I'm happy that the job was done correctly to as high a standard as I personally can possibly do. Sure it takes 4 days instead of 1 but I don't care if I've done it right the first time and don't have to go back and do it again as I often see on here.
Being the son of a plumber who took immense pleasure in the work he did who then went on to become a firefighter, I've had safety and high standards drilled into me from an early age. So when you guys say you can't do x,y,z due to it being a potential hazard I read the explaination so if it ever comes up I won't do the same mistake.

Sorry if the posts a bit wishy washy, but I felt I had to add to RB's comment that there are people out there who listen and learn from you guys and do appreciate the hours some of you spend on here to help us AFTER 8+hrs slogging it out with dodgy PIRs and wiring that can make your hair stand on end literally!

Rob
 
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I too come here very often and actually enjoy reading the forums (ignoring the occasional sarcy/back biting topics) especially the sparks forums. Some may think us DIYers don't take in what you say, personally I do.
Unfortunately there is much squabbling in some posts. But like you I ignore those and leave them to their own devices.

Despite this I think that the forum as a whole does offer good advice. But you have to agree that after reading the posts on this thread - the OP wasn't getting the advice he wanted and then just set off on with abuse...
 
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the reason some people get treated like idiont is that unlike the plumbing section that has the "combustion chamber", where registered gas installers can go to ask each other questions, we don't have any such section and can't simply say "you can't do that by law, call a registered electrician".

so for things which by their very nature are out of the scope of your average DIYer ( and your level of competence WILL be judged on the basis of your question and the information you provide, it's the only thing we have to go on after all ), we will try to discourage you from doing any work that we think is beyond your abilities..

it could be that you have a PHD from NASA, but that still doesn't mean that you are automatically capable of changing a consumer unit etc..
 
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the reason some people get treated like idiont is that unlike the plumbing section that has the "combustion chamber", where registered gas installers can go to ask each other questions, we don't have any such section and can't simply say "you can't do that by law, call a registered electrician".


firstly.. not saying electrics isnt dangerous, im aware of the risks.. electricution.. fire etc... but the reason why only combustion chamber on there is restricted is because in some respects Gas can be more dangerous, and I can some that up with 1 word.. Carbon Monoxide, it has no smell.. and is a silent killer.. it can kill everybody in the house and you wouldnt even know there was a problem... that is the only reason why combustion chamber section is restricted.

But with electrics..if you do something wrong, you soon know about it because you end up electricuted... but generally electrics can be that little bit safer as well.. because especialy with modern consumer units.. if theres a fault they trip out and you have that sign you have done something wrong... even with fuses, the system will generally burn out somewhere before it gets to the point of a fire.

but with combustion chambers.. do something wrong and next thing you know your dead due to carbon monoxide poisoning.

but again.. does that restricted section really stop people who "think" they can service their own boilers going ahead?.. all that does is stop people asking the questions.. but it wont stop them doing it if they want to.

because there isnt actually anything in the law that technically says you cant... if your the homeowner, and its in your own house, and money isnt exchanged your allowed to do it, on the condition you can show your competant... but heres the catch, theres nothing written in the legal documents that say competance is by means of being registered like with electrical or hold relevant qualifications... and after doing alot of reading up on the matter and on the word of a corgi inspector.. competance can be shown purely by in the example of fitting a boiler.. following the instructions to the letter.. and nothing going wrong.. but of course if something did go wrong your house insurance is likely to be void.

heres a quote from a HSE government document,

"DIY Gas Installation and Maintenance

While current law does now prohibit gas work provided the person is competent to do it safely, DIY is strongly discouraged in HSE guidance, and the use of a Corgi registered gas installer is advised fior all gas work"

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/disdocs/dde14b.pdf

So while I may not agree that you should be allowed to do gas work, based on the above.. which may/may not be correct it sugests in your own home only you can do ga

so for things which by their very nature are out of the scope of your average DIYer ( and your level of competence WILL be judged on the basis of your question and the information you provide, it's the only thing we have to go on after all ), we will try to discourage you from doing any work that we think is beyond your abilities..

it could be that you have a PHD from NASA, but that still doesn't mean that you are automatically capable of changing a consumer unit etc..

I agree, that you have to judge the level of competance of a person, based on the question... and having a PHD doesnt automatically mean somebody is capable.

but at the same time your only getting half the story, me for example.. ive been branded several times as incompetant on here.. and while I dont claim to be as competant as all of you... for somebody who is incompetant.. from the supervised stuff ive done regarding electrical work, and work ive done and had inspected by LAB.. everybody has been perfectly fine with my work.. and cant fault it... 1 electrician even commented that it was done to a high standard.. and in 1 supervised install the electrician specifically said to 2 properly developers I know of that if they wanted to do their own electrics under a supervised install he wouldnt allow them to do it, but would me because he knows my work is to a good standard, so I did all the electrics.. and he just came in and did the consumer unit tested and inspected everything and signed it off.... so am I really that incompetant? like some other DIYers? I have the 17th Edition regulations to hand, I have alot of the guide books etc.. even calibrated test equipment.. yet everytime ive been on here.. I get nothing but abuse and told how incompetant I am and how im incapable.

when the truth is, I may only have a small question just to confirm or clear something up... but it doesnt necessarily make me incompetant.

and as above.. even if you feel somebody is incompetant, you can advise them to get an electrician and give reasons, tell them about part p... but if they are hellbent on doing the job they will go ahead with it anyway... just the difference is without your advice they will be doing the job that much more dangerously... and if somebody gets killed, yes thats their own fault because they wasnt capable.. but what if the advice they could of been given would of been in this case a difference between life and death?.. they seeked advice, was declined it and sent away then they tackled the job without relevant knowledge that resulted in their death?.. then gives the government 1 moore reason to make things harder for people who are genuinely capable with lots of red tape....like how many of you electricians actually like Part P?.. and I dont mean like the fact its supposed to control DIY electrics.. I mean like as in the fact you now have alot more paperwork and red tape.. and a yearly fee you have to fork out for?

and do you believe that if property developers werent doing bad electrics, or DIYers doing poor electrics we would be in this situation with Part P?

Most people are scared of gas and wont touch it anyway, because they are educated on the facts of carbon monoxide poisoning and everybody knows you can have an explosion that will kill you/destroy your house.. but electrics people will be more inclined to do... so in some respects electricians have more of a responsibility to ensure if people are hellbent on doing something without being competant they are properly advised and doing it at least better than they would of done without the advice.. because part p goes in 1 ear and out the other... and im sure your already aware of that in the cases of most people.. and it boils down to, would you rather an incompetant person done an installation slightly correct and in a slightly safer manner based on professional advice? or would you rather they tackled the job on their own.. burn their house down or kill themselves and add yet more red tape to the system and paperwork.
 
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all good points except for a few..

electricity is also silent and deadly.. just ask that MP who's wife got electrocuted in a bath at their holiday home..
if you mess it up it can be just as lethal and go undetected for a long time until the circumstances are just right to cause a fatal interaction...

it can also kill an entire family while they sleep with no warning.. it starts fires.. and before you say about fire / smoke alarms, don't forget that there are carbon monoxide alarms as well..

while there may be preventative measure in place ( ie MCB's RCD's etc ) they all rely on the proper desing and installation of the system..

while gas is restricted to 2, maybe 3 rooms in a house, electricity in usually in every single room, including the ones where you are butt nekid and dripping wet..

in general if we are harsh with a reply it's because the question or demeanor of the asker warrants it..
while there may be times when a post ends up as a heated debate over the rules and regs, it's only because we don't have out own "The Fuse Board" professionals only forum to hash out such debates in..
 
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That is a long rant, and i cant disect it, although i wouldn't say electrics are safe to muck about with and gas isnt.

what is more dangerous -

secnario a - you turn off your gas supply, cut through a pipe and turn it back on?

secnario b - you turn off your electric, cut through a cable and then turn it back on?

you say that new consumer units with RCD's make life safer, 30mA can kill you, and with you as the exception here, how many diyers have access to test equipment, can they use it correctly and safely, and how do they know that the results they are acheiving are adequate.

Part P has caused me no extra paperwork whatsoever, I personally think a blanket ban would have been better, like gas work, but thats just my opinion, and i am aware that people are still doing their own gas work and that people will still do their own electrics.

I am not having a go AT you, just trying to see if your judgment on what is safe to do and not safe to do could be swayed into thinking that electrics are probibally alot more dangerous to muck about with for the average joe than you make out.
 
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in many respects, Part P went one step further than the gas rules..
you don't have to notify any DIY gaswork you do or have it checked by a professional..
while you don't have to notify ALL electrical work, some of the more complex and potentially dangerous aspects you do...
 
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all good points except for a few..

electricity is also silent and deadly.. just ask that MP who's wife got electrocuted in a bath at their holiday home..
if you mess it up it can be just as lethal and go undetected for a long time until the circumstances are just right to cause a fatal interaction...

it can also kill an entire family while they sleep with no warning.. it starts fires.. and before you say about fire / smoke alarms, don't forget that there are carbon monoxide alarms as well..

while there may be preventative measure in place ( ie MCB's RCD's etc ) they all rely on the proper desing and installation of the system..

while gas is restricted to 2, maybe 3 rooms in a house, electricity in usually in every single room, including the ones where you are butt nekid and dripping wet..

in general if we are harsh with a reply it's because the question or demeanor of the asker warrants it..
while there may be times when a post ends up as a heated debate over the rules and regs, it's only because we don't have out own "The Fuse Board" professionals only forum to hash out such debates in..

yep you do have valid arguments lol and I agree with them funnily enough.

has anybody maybe sugested to the mods? or admin setting up an area like that? especially now part P has been introduced?
 
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That is a long rant, and i cant disect it, although i wouldn't say electrics are safe to muck about with and gas isnt.

what is more dangerous -

secnario a - you turn off your gas supply, cut through a pipe and turn it back on?

secnario b - you turn off your electric, cut through a cable and then turn it back on?

you say that new consumer units with RCD's make life safer, 30mA can kill you, and with you as the exception here, how many diyers have access to test equipment, can they use it correctly and safely, and how do they know that the results they are acheiving are adequate.

Part P has caused me no extra paperwork whatsoever, I personally think a blanket ban would have been better, like gas work, but thats just my opinion, and i am aware that people are still doing their own gas work and that people will still do their own electrics.

I am not having a go AT you, just trying to see if your judgment on what is safe to do and not safe to do could be swayed into thinking that electrics are probibally alot more dangerous to muck about with for the average joe than you make out.

As above, agree on the comparison on gas and electrics.. which is why Gas is still in some respects marginally more dangerous in its own right.
cut through an electrical wire.. turn electrics back on.. yes it then becomes an electricution risk.. but not until somebody touches it.. gas though will fill your house.. then a small spark be it even from a light switch will just ignite the lot.

I also appreciate what you say about other DIYers not having access to test equipment, know how to use it safely etc, just used me as an example because although I may not be as competant as all of you.. I can be competent enough to carry out a task given the proper knowledge and guidance... which is why.. sometimes Im really put off coming on here and not a regular visitor.. because sometimes in the past.. I have the regulations infront of me, telling me what is required.. but all I want is confirmation, or an oppinion based on your experience because your doing it day in, day out, and sometimes different people have different ways of doing something.. but I get branded as being incompetant and requiring an electrician.. when, eletricians inspect my work and are generally happy with it as have been LAB, so there cant be much wrong with my work just sometimes need to clear something up... so in my case is it fair I get branded as incompetant and abused for it?.. and so you should be sometimes a bit more understanding that maybe some people are more competant than it seems... or maybe, like I did once, made a mess of explaining what I was going to do properly.. but I wouldnt of actually gone ahead and done it wrong without double checking things as I go along.

But as above, if somebody is hellbent on doing the task, they will do it with or without your advice, just the difference is with your advice its likely to be that much safer than if they did it on their own back.


Yes 30ma can kill you, any mains electrical voltage is enough to stop your heart.. but its still safer than before with the wired fuses.. and while alot of people still have them, more and more are moving over to the new RCD protected consumer units over time.

Part P might not of caused you any extra paperwork, but im sure it must of incurred extra costs in some way, shape or form.

But it really does boil down to oppinion on gas and electrics.. somebody is always going to find a reason why electrics are more dangerous.. and somebody is always going to find a reason why gas is just as dangerous... so its not really something that can be fairly debated, therefore both should be treated with the same respect and safety precautions taken into considerations as they can be equally deadly.

Only difference with gas, is if this is anything to go by,

"DIY Gas Installation and Maintenance

While current law does now prohibit gas work provided the person is competent to do it safely, DIY is strongly discouraged in HSE guidance, and the use of a Corgi registered gas installer is advised fior all gas work"

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/disdocs/dde14b.pdf

assuming the law hasnt changed.. and depending on how you interpret the law/regulations.. it can be assumed that it is fine to do gas work in your own home, as the homeowner providing no money is exchanged, and competancy can be proved just by doing a correct, fault free installation.. as again unless its changed, there was no definitiion of competant, unlike electrical where they state qualifications or the requirement that you need to belong to a registered body. Again thats not my oppinion and its open to enterpretation, but assuming that is the case.. that allows the homeowner to do gas, but not electrics because electrics then have to be notified.

although of course in both situations, you can still be prosecuted for doing dangerous work, and your insurance would be void if it went wrong.
 
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But as incompetant as some people seem.. is it not better to help them carry out the work safely?
These are both from the same topic where the OP was planning to change a CU, and was asking some pretty basic questions:

Also.. dont mean to critiscise and put a boot in it.

But, because you are asking those questions on here on what to do.. are you competant in doing the work?

this isnt just extending a circuit, changing a fitting or fixture.. maybe adding an extra circuit which you know is sound.
.
.
dont mean to sound blunt.. just looking out for you, because if this goes wrong due to a lack of knowledge.. being electrics it will go seriously wrong.. especially when you have no way to isolate the incoming supply from the meter.
further highlighting the fact this person may not even be competant enough to be attempting this job.

:confused:
 

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