The EU Referendum

[Freddie]

well it was not me who chose the example of red diesel for recreational boaters. i would assume you chose your best example of what we risk losing. Someone might have a list, I don't. VAT is one. Have to say that the special low rate of VAT on electricity is ridiculous. Was it VAT on newspapers also? subsidising the press barons?

Which treaties have you read then? I still have a copy of maastricht somewhere.

Why do you think that the EU beurocracy would work any different to our own? People here rush to spend their budget at the end of the year exactly the same. This is hardly news.

Rising prices because of the Euro? Well now, I think probably not. I think that for the most part since people had to issue a new price in Euros they took the opportunity to incorporate a price rise. But you would have had exactly the same price rise anyway. Only it would have come in your previous currency. But people naturally decided to all do it on the same day because they had to make a change anyway. i recall seeing some statistics which demonstrated this.

I find films about bricklaying very helpfull.

Iam not quite sure what you are saying about fraud. Aren't you just saying that the Irish have done their very best to make the most of each and every opportunity presented by the EU?

I give up----------Damocles, it is not a critism of the Irish but the EU. When somebody is inept and useless at what they do which is handling your money and distributing your money to different areas and projects, you cant blame the people who it goes to making a bit more of it and taking you to the cleaners.

 

[Damocles]

I wasn't criticising the Irish for making the most of it. I am sure they did exactly the same when the british were in charge but with a lot more 'edge' on both sides.

Don't give up. Just because you do not understand why we need the EU is no reason to stop trying. I have to say that the real reason people who dislike thwe Eu do dislike the EU is exactly the same reason the Iraqis dislike the Americans. No one likes a foreign power running their country. Only I reckon we get more influence over the rest of the EU states than we lose from their interference with us.

 

[Freddie]

 

[david and julie]

Then I would do my level best to start speaking facts not fallacies about terrorism. And get as much distance as possible from America. Call in the UN.

I would respect him very much more had he stood up in parliament and stated that for economic reasons as well as humanitarian ones he intended to invade an essentially unarmed foreign nation. Or even simply because his ally America had requested it.

Distancing us from our closest 'allies', the Americans? You mean the people whose policy has resulted in British citizens fearing being killed by terrorists at any minute? With friends like that.....

In this case, invading Iraq when that country posed no military threat to Britain and without UN sanction amounted to a war crime. Half of the government's problems were because they were trying to justify something not justified in international law. The Americans simply did not bother.

I believe the Americans wanted the war because they are the most powerful country in the world and mean to use their power. They have precious little regard for the rights of anyone who is not an American citizen.

So he parroted all the rubbish being produced by the Americans to justify their position. His mistake. But what would prezzie Bush have said if Tony had said 'ok, we think the war is a good idea, but frankly this has absolutely nothing to do with world terrorism or any realistic threat from Iraq'. i think Bush would have been threatening sanctions against the UK.

We are hardly ever given a choice what our money is spent on. Didn't you notice that? I would much rather pay the poles to sort out the border and no longer have to maintain an army in Germany, just in case the Russians invaded. Remember? Cold War? Price of victory? American idea again?

I seem to remember that Bush was exactly threatening countries to get them to join in his war. If they joined in they would get aid, trade and favours. If they declined they would have their aid cancelled, trading status revoked. Why do you think he would behave any differently to us?

I imagine there must be archive film of the Americans discussing their support for their friends, the Argentinians and objecting to british warmongering. Look up some old newspapers.

Just the odd couple of quotes from the last few weeks Damacles and heres some others.

The EU is the best chance for Europe to really become a united force in the world. America gets more jittery every time an ex-communist country joins our side. Odd that, really.

How come you discount the cost of the Iraq war? What you seem to say is that it is OK, because most of the money will get spent buying new bullets made in british factories. But a lot of those bullets are very likely made in the good old USA.

i do not hate the US at all. They are just getting on with trying to run the world to suit their best interest. Just like every other country. I merely point out that all we are doing is patting the head of a tiger. One day it will bite. Far too many people think it is a pussycat. If there is a tiger on the loose,best thing to do is buy a big gun, just in case.

Europe as a continent is more developed than the US and has the potential to be the biggest power on the planet.

Now given the chance Damocles what would you do with that power?

I reckon you have a few issues and have your own agenda for joining the EU.

Warmongering little Gobsh**e.

 

[Damocles]

I would point out that most things done in the name of the EU are in fact done by the home governments. So in this country it would be the ministry of agriculture to blame. Or was that renamed as something else? British civil servants are more than capable of screwing everything up without the EU doing anything. What does happen is that when the Uk officials are caught out they blame it on the EU. Don't get me started on the incompetence of the rating valuation officers. As far as I know the EU still has absolutely nothing to do with them.

My experience of the effects of the EU is firstly from watching the UK being forced to play more of a role within Europe (something definitely to the good of the country), and secondly from watching the transformation of the ex-soviet states into 'western democracies'- to a significant degree with guidance from the EU because of their desire to join. The template of laws and institutions required to join the EU has done enormous things to turn them into what we understand as free states. Stabilising neighbouring states is a priceless gift for any government. That is what our money is being spent on.

Entry of the new states has obliged countries like France to revise farm policies in a way which will give them less from the EU so as to stop the drain of subsidies to these new countries. In time (say decade or so) these countries economies will improve as has happened to every country joining the EU and they will cease to be a net drain on the budget. In the long term this will all be to our advantage.

 

[Freddie]

Too much info Damacles.

 

[jasy]

How come you discount the cost of the Iraq war? What you seem to say is that it is OK, because most of the money will get spent buying new bullets made in british factories. But a lot of those bullets are very likely made in the good old USA.

WRONG. They are made in the UK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Damocles]

Yes, ok, I expect we still make bullets. But we do import a lot of weaponry and I am sure some of it now needs replacing.

Every EU country administers the EU regulations for itself. In this respect whether it is done effectively and honestly is rather out of the EUs hands.

Ok, I admit it. I'm a farmer. But I don't get a penny in subsidy and pay a damn sight too much in rates. Riddle me that one, it is the UK government I have a problem with.

Anyone who cares to can find out about this stuff. It is all out there if anyone listens. Luckily for government, few do.

 

[Freddie]

 

[Damocles]

Which rubbish exactly? I know there are lots of daft things in the world of farm subsidy but ultimately this is about giving money to farmers because farming does not pay.

I would be happy to take any grants if any were on offer. Oh yes there are rates. (Hint: It is a question of the legal definition of farming). Quite a few farmers are still due a nasty surprise.

 

[david and julie]

I would point out that most things done in the name of the EU are in fact done by the home governments.

I find it hard to admit it but I agree with you on this part Damocles.

My own dislike is probably also to do with our own government though not entirely.

About 7 or 8 years ago we were subject to a compulsory purchase of our business premises due to a new road, part funded by EU regeneration. The people responsible for assisting us to relocate we a development corporation, the people who generally administer the EU assistance for companies effected by these schemes. They continually told lies about the land thay held for this purpose because they said my business(car recovery) was not high tech enough to be in Trafford Park in Manchester which was (may still be) Europes biggest industrial estate, After months of haggling which eventually included my MP they relented and admitted they owned the land I wanted and was for that purpose. My business employed 8 people at the time and they could of give me a grant of some £30K from the EU to help us. Instead because they were annoyed they put the land up by £10K They then said you are entitled to the grant but we can put a time limit on it. Through sheer awkwardness they gave me 3 months to apply for planning clear the site and completely finish the building. The months were Dec,.Jan and Feb. It was an impossible loop for us to jump through and they just smirked at us. They therefore cost us £40K in total. I presume the Irish treat each other better.

I am glad to say we did eventually manage the work and the site is now resonsible for around 30 to 40 full time jobs although I am semi retired.

Fom that day on I absolutely refuse to help officialdom in any way I can which will be harder for me if we are in the EU. I don't want you take anything I say personally but it just winds me up so much the whole affair.

I genuinely do not think the EU is good for us and I believe my reasons are honest I am not trying to deceive anyone. We will all have to accept each others opinion this time I reckon.

 

[Freddie]

simple question just needs a simple answer please

 

[Richardp]

Just thought I'd share this.
Puppy Farming first came into existence in the 1980's via grants to farmers in Wales. MAFF, as it was then known, encouraged farmers to apply for these grants and to diversify, to supplement the low prices being paid for milk quotas. The result of this criminal funding of people to breed indiscriminately and without any thought or welfare standards for the breeding bitches and the puppies they produced, is still will us today

FARMERS in west Berkshire have successfully set up their own nest egg after encouraging owl breeding in the area and winning a government grant
and did you know farmers can get grants for encouraging hares on their land and yet have just complained that their no longer allowed to set their dogs against them for sport!!.

 

[Freddie]

 

[Big_Spark]

Yes, ok, I expect we still make bullets. But we do import a lot of weaponry and I am sure some of it now needs replacing.

Actually Damocles over 75% of arms used by the British Military is home produced.

Around 20% produced within Europe as partners in joint projects, such as Eurofighter, and the remainder is from the US.

I'll lay odds that people will mention compnaies like Heckler and Koch, Glock and similar Firewarms manufacturers, the truth is that all are HQ'ed in thier founding counties, and many weapons produced there, but they are actually owned by UK interests.

H&K and Glock by GKN Vickers....for one.

I would post more, but I only got in from work about an hour ago..am pooped out!!