Migration Within EU and its Effect to UK and The Referendum

[Himaginn]

I've titled this thread about migration with EU because in or out the migration to/from non-EU countries is not really affected, other than the flow of refugees.
I'm not, at this point, differentiating between asylum seekers and economic migrants. Neither am I intending to discuss refugees from different parts of the world, because the thread is about migration within EU.

This is just a start and I'm sure I and others will add to this discussion in due course.

To start with, EU migration is extremely dependent on the type of Trade Agreement finally reached with EU, if any, on a Brexit.

If the Trade Agreement is in anyway similar to the EFTA we can be totally confident that the acceptance of the Schengen Agreement will be included. That will mean the dismantling of our borders with EU countries.

Currently, the amount of benefits received by EU migrants is:
£530M received by 131.000 EU migrants. That's 2.5% of the total EU migrants in UK and 1.6% of the total UK benefits bill.

There are about 3.4 million jobs dependent on export to EU.
Our total benefits payable to EU migrants (these include in-work benefits, so they may well be paying into the system to counterbalance their receipts.) is 0.23% of the value of our exports to EU.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ndum-What-will-Brexit-mean-for-migration.html

Of course other EU countries are also paying benefits to UK citizens resident in their countries.

But supposing some other sort of trading arrangement was concluded, even if it was merely an acceptance of paying each others import tariffs.

As far as immigration benefiting UK is concerned, just look at the number of immigrants in highly important positions in UK. Each time a world re-known medical specialist is interviewed on TV, invariably it's an immigrant.
Some famous immigrants:
Mo Farah, Sir Anish Kapoor, Kazuo Ishiguro, Ulrika Jonsson, Sigmund Freud, Michael marks (M&S), T S. Elliot, Sir Alec Issigonis, Sir Lew Grade, Duke of Edingburgh, Robert Maxwell, Dame Zaha Hadid, Jung Chang,
I could go on and on all day, and still there would be so many more. Sure, these were not all EU migrants. But I simply could not list all the beneficial migration that UK has experienced, and of course, will continue to experience if we're IN. In my mind the report highlighted in the Trade thread indicates that future migration for scientific research will be to EU, not to UK if we're OUT.

I know, you're going to say we could have welcomed those people if we had a points system to control immigration.
But any list of immigrants does not include the sons and daughters of immigrants who were born in UK and went on to give UK so much. Members of society who would simply not be here or received their education if their parents had not made the sometimes desperate journey to give their children a better chance in life. Parents who may have arrived here penniless but made UK their home, struggling to to provide for their children and in so doing proving that immigration has been, on the whole, beneficial to UK.

 

[blightymam]

.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

As far as immigration benefiting UK is concerned, just look at the number of immigrants in highly important positions in UK.

"Just look at the number of highly important positions in UK who wear shoes. Therefore shoes are responsible for creating important persons. We need shoes."

Correlation is not causation.

 

[Himaginn]

As far as immigration benefiting UK is concerned, just look at the number of immigrants in highly important positions in UK.

"Just look at the number of highly important positions in UK who wear shoes. Therefore shoes are responsible for creating important persons. We need shoes."

Correlation is not causation.

But if we didn't have shoes, we'd have cold, sore, dirty feet. So, without shoes we need some sort of replacement for shoes.
And it would not deny or explain the historical, present or future benefit of having shoes.

BTW, immigrants are people, and it's their status as people, first and foremost, that is responsible for creating people, not their status as immigrants.

So your attempt at a criticism of a causal link between immigrants and the creation of important people does not stand up to minimum scrutiny.

It is however indicative of the important role played by immigrants in modern society.

 

[blightymam]

What do you hope to achieve with this thread? It's pretty much standard fare isn't it? Immigration is fine, been doing it for thousands of years - Vikings, Normans, Celts, Anglo-Saxons etc. Or were those called invasions?

It is however indicative of the important role played by immigrants in modern society.

Britain is made up of many bits of these immigrants, our language for one and of course there are good immigrants, just as there are bad ones (as are human's all over the world) so again, not sure what you're trying to do, other than teach grandma how to suck eggs.

If you're trying (not so subtly) to touch on something more topical, ie, Mass immigration in Europe then that's a different kettle of fish altogether. Yes, immigrants are people, first and foremost, yet it is undeniable that mass immigration is a problem right now. To deny that is putting blinkers on. Europe will probably cope am sure, but there will a lot of change. People do not like change.

 

[Himaginn]

It is however indicative of the important role played by immigrants in modern society.

If you're trying (not so subtly) to touch on something more topical, ie, Mass immigration in Europe then that's a different kettle of fish altogether. Yes, immigrants are people, first and foremost, yet it is undeniable that mass immigration is a problem right now. To deny that is putting blinkers on. Europe will probably cope am sure, but there will a lot of change. People do not like change.

So is the phenomenon of what is happening with mass immigration into EU now, a reasonable decision to vote OUT?
I suspect that everyone would answer 'NO', because it's a temporary aberration and should not solely determine such a lifelong decision as to leave EU.
In which case it's either irrelevant, or it's only relevant in terms of it could happen again.
Although certainly it could and maybe should influence any decision that might result in UK being in the Schengen Agreement.

So either, we restrict the discussion to EU migration only, or we look to ways to prevent such an occurrence from happening again, or what mechanisms can we employ to accommodate such an occurrence happening next time.

For now I'd want to restrict the discussion to EU migration only.
If others want to explore the other issues that I've mentioned, of preventing it happening again, or accommodating it if it did, then they're free to start those other threads, imagining hypothetical scenarios and how to deal with them next time, if there is a next time..

 

[blightymam]

It is however indicative of the important role played by immigrants in modern society.

If you're trying (not so subtly) to touch on something more topical, ie, Mass immigration in Europe then that's a different kettle of fish altogether. Yes, immigrants are people, first and foremost, yet it is undeniable that mass immigration is a problem right now. To deny that is putting blinkers on. Europe will probably cope am sure, but there will a lot of change. People do not like change.

So is the phenomenon of what is happening with mass immigration into EU now, a reasonable decision to vote OUT?
I suspect that everyone would answer 'NO', because it's a temporary aberration and should not solely determine such a lifelong decision as to leave EU.
In which case it's either irrelevant, or it's only relevant in terms of it could happen again.
Although certainly it could and maybe should influence any decision that might result in UK being in the Schengen Agreement.

So either, we restrict the discussion to EU migration only, or we look to ways to prevent such an occurrence from happening again, or what mechanisms can we employ to accommodate such an occurrence happening next time.

For now I'd want to restrict the discussion to EU migration only.
If others want to explore the other issues that I've mentioned, of preventing it happening again, or accommodating it if it did, then they're free to start those other threads, imagining hypothetical scenarios and how to deal with them next time, if there is a next time..

OK, am not clear. You've now making the leap about this being about voting on the EU or what I said? Tho I never mentioned anything about voting? Urmmm.... I suspect it is really tho, esp with your reaction above to what I said.

Then you say that you only want to talk about EU migration. Then I go back to what I said, you're teaching grandma how to suck eggs. It's nothing we don't already know - migration has been going of thousands of years yadayada, of course there are good people that migrate back and fourth in Europe yadayada.

Just comes over as you're talking when there is no need to.

 

[Fire and Ice]

Himaginn is in a very ham fisted and unsubtle way trying to taunt the Out crowd into condemning mass immigration, thus allowing him to jump up and down in an excited way and use his favourite word whilst pretending that his Corbynite views are on the side of reason and intellect, hoping that some of us will get so annoyed with his mindless pap that we end up getting banned..

All I have to say is Sweden.

 

[Himaginn]

It is however indicative of the important role played by immigrants in modern society.

If you're trying (not so subtly) to touch on something more topical, ie, Mass immigration in Europe then that's a different kettle of fish altogether. Yes, immigrants are people, first and foremost, yet it is undeniable that mass immigration is a problem right now. To deny that is putting blinkers on. Europe will probably cope am sure, but there will a lot of change. People do not like change.

So is the phenomenon of what is happening with mass immigration into EU now, a reasonable decision to vote OUT?
I suspect that everyone would answer 'NO', because it's a temporary aberration and should not solely determine such a lifelong decision as to leave EU.
In which case it's either irrelevant, or it's only relevant in terms of it could happen again.
Although certainly it could and maybe should influence any decision that might result in UK being in the Schengen Agreement.

So either, we restrict the discussion to EU migration only, or we look to ways to prevent such an occurrence from happening again, or what mechanisms can we employ to accommodate such an occurrence happening next time.

For now I'd want to restrict the discussion to EU migration only.
If others want to explore the other issues that I've mentioned, of preventing it happening again, or accommodating it if it did, then they're free to start those other threads, imagining hypothetical scenarios and how to deal with them next time, if there is a next time..

OK, am not clear. You've now making the leap about this being about voting on the EU or what I said? Tho I never mentioned anything about voting? Urmmm.... I suspect it is really tho, esp with your reaction above to what I said.

Then you say that you only want to talk about EU migration. Then I go back to what I said, you're teaching grandma how to suck eggs. It's nothing we don't already know - migration has been going of thousands of years yadayada, of course there are good people that migrate back and fourth in Europe yadayada.

Just comes over as you're talking when there is no need to.

My apologies, blightyman, I appear to have inadvertently left you disorientated.
My mistake, and again, my apologies.
I have edited the title of the thread to make it plain the purpose and concept of this thread.
I did mistakenly think that most would have seen and read my thread about Reasons to Remain, where I said:

Remaining in EU

As I see it there are several issues regarding the arguments for leaving or remaining. I don’t see these as separate issues but dependent inter-connected issues.
I’ll deal with the other issues in separate posts, to make it easier for further discussion.

and I thought that people would automatically assume that this thread was a continuance along the same direction.
Although my very first sentence in this thread was:

I've titled this thread about migration with EU because in or out the yadayada

 

[blightymam]

So this thread, as suspected, is a waste of time. Another to add to the ever-increasing pile.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I fail to see how anyone can say what would be the state of affairs had things which have happened not happened - and vice versa.
I.e. what it would be like had we not joined the Common Market and fallen into the EU.

You may as well say that there is not enough emigration.

How do we know the figures stated are true?
For, or by, which side were they compiled?

 

[ladylola]

Not really wanting to get in on this so I'll just post a link,
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/...this-there-may-be-no-eu-for-britain-to-leave/

 

[tony1851]

Himaggin, PLEASE, - is there anything else you might interested in for once! Trains? foreign holidays? XIXth -century French literature? - the list is endless!

 

[PBC_1966]

If the Trade Agreement is in anyway similar to the EFTA we can be totally confident that the acceptance of the Schengen Agreement will be included. That will mean the dismantling of our borders with EU countries.

Then it wouldn't be just a trade agreement, surely? If the EU wants to insist that any sort of deal on trade is conditional upon a whole load of other things, such as eaving the U.K.'s border completely open, then the U.K. should just tell the EU "No thanks."

There are about 3.4 million jobs dependent on export to EU.

Dependent in what sense? Are you really trying to suggest that if exports to the EU started to decline that 3.4 million jobs would be lost?

Some famous immigrants:
Mo Farah, Sir Anish Kapoor, Kazuo Ishiguro, Ulrika Jonsson, Sigmund Freud, Michael marks (M&S), T S. Elliot, Sir Alec Issigonis, Sir Lew Grade, Duke of Edingburgh, Robert Maxwell, Dame Zaha Hadid, Jung Chang

There are a couple in that list I've never heard of, but several who immigrated to the U.K. long before it was part of the open-borders EU, and long before it even joined the EEC. So what does membership of the EU have to do with them being in the U.K. and whatever achievements they may have had?

 

[EFLImpudence]

I especially liked these contradictions:

Duke of Edingburgh,

But any list of immigrants does not include the sons and daughters of immigrants who were born in UK and went on to give UK so much. Members of society who would simply not be here or received their education if their parents had not made the sometimes desperate journey to give their children a better chance in life. Parents who may have arrived here penniless but made UK their home, struggling to to provide for their children and in so doing proving that immigration has been, on the whole, beneficial to UK.