Trade with EU

[Himaginn]

Then why do you keep harping on and on about the "free trade " with the EU, which wouldn't be "free" if we leave the EU ?????

I'm not sure whether you're totally confused yourself, or whether you are intentionally trying to mislead anyone else.
Let me explain it, again.

We currently enjoy free trade with EU (and the EFTA countries) That's a fundamental foundation of EU principles. Freedom of goods, services, capital and people. These four freedoms are without tariffs, barriers, anti-competitive measures, etc. Although there is some leeway for temporary measures to be adopted, e.g. in the event of new member countries joining EU.

If we choose to leave EU, the four freedoms are rescinded, either by agreement, or by default after two years. Therefore we no longer are allowed, by right, to trade freely with EU. It then depends on what kind of Trading Agreement is reached with EU, if any.
If no agreement is reached import/export tariffs, barriers, anti-competitive measures, whatever, are allowable. And it is highly probable that EU would introduce some punitive measures. These would not be punitive for their own exports! Only punitive for imports from UK! And Eire, as an EU member would be obliged to follow EU policy. This would further apply to Scotland in the event of Scots voting to leave UK and join EU.

IMO, if a Trading Agreement is reached with EU, in the event of Brexit, it will inevitably involve the four freedoms again. Moreover it would IMO include UK being in the Schengen area. That is a deterioration in our current arrangement as far as control over our borders is concerned.
It will also require UK to comply with all the current EU legislation, as far as trade is concerned, and it will require UK to make substantial payments to EU without any returns, and no say in EU legislation, direction, policy, etc.

Any suggestion of UK trading globally without agreements with EU is economic suicide.
Bruce Forsyth will be back with his "Buy British" slogans because UK will suffer the kind of economic difficulties that caused us to join EU in the first place.

Needless to say the Brexit-ers have so far refused to set out their idea of what trading arrangements will be in place in the event of a Brexit.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I dislike your term "anti-competitive". Wouldn't "anti-unfair advantage" or "playing field leveller" be better?

Scotland voted to remain part of the UK; why would we let them (if UK left EU) break away and join EU?
Why do they still have a separate parliament?
Could Derbyshire do the same?

Why would it be alright for Scotland to leave the UK but not for UK to leave EU?

IMO,

So, may not be right.

Needless to say the Brexit-ers have so far refused to set out their idea of what trading arrangements will be in place in the event of a Brexit.

That's because no one knows; perhaps we will be told the truth in due course.
Perhaps we will just have a plethora of unsubstantiated opinions from which to choose.
Perhaps the majority will be swayed by footballers not having free access to Britain.

Why don't they tell us what the EU will be like in ten years time?

 

[jockscott]

IMO, if a Trading Agreement is reached with EU, in the event of Brexit, it will inevitably involve the four freedoms again. Moreover it would IMO include UK being in the Schengen area. .

Conjecture and opinion, Himmy. The Schengen agreement is in tatters already with EU country after country imposing border controls. You think that following a Brexit the UK would sign up to the Schengen agreement? I very much doubt that at all (yes that's an opinion too)

 

[jockscott]

The truth is, no one knows what would happen following a Brexit. I'm sure (my opinion) that the EU would continue to trade with the UK. Forget all the doom and gloom from Himmy about following EU dictats and the four principles. The EU already trade with China,,, Did they sign up to the four principles? Nah, Himmy is just stirring things with his opinions

 

[Himaginn]

I dislike your term "anti-competitive". Wouldn't "anti-unfair advantage" or "playing field leveller" be better?

Absolutely not!
Competition is accepted and expected within EU market place.
Anti-competitive could be described as "unfair advantage" or "playing field unleveller"
Anti-competitive is the universally recognised term. If you'd like to talk to the various organisations that recognise phrases, etc, I suspect you'd receive an answer. It might be a one-word answer though.

Scotland voted to remain part of the UK; why would we let them (if UK left EU) break away and join EU?
Why would it be alright for Scotland to leave the UK but not for UK to leave EU?

First of all, how would you stop Scotland from breaking away from UK?
I didn't say it was alright for UK to leave EU. I didn't express an opinion on Scotland leaving UK.

IMO,

So, may not be right.

By the same token, I may be right.

Needless to say the Brexit-ers have so far refused to set out their idea of what trading arrangements will be in place in the event of a Brexit.

That's because no one knows; perhaps we will be told the truth in due course.

Why do you expect the truth? Perhaps it'll be pure imagination, propaganda and politics of paranoia.

Perhaps we will just have a plethora of unsubstantiated opinions from which to choose.

Perhaps we will not have a choice in the options that are eventually presented to us, in the event of a Brexit.

Why don't they tell us what the EU will be like in ten years time?

Who's "they"?
Why don't 'they' tell us what the climate will be like in ten years time?
Why don't 'they' tell us what Russia will be like in ten years time?
Why don't 'they' tell us what the Chinese will be doing in ten years time?

It's completely different to the situation to the Brexit-ers advising us to jump, but refuse to tell us what we're jumping into, or what are the available options that we might land on. It's a completely unknown, and 'they' refuse to explore the possibilities.
Would you parachute out of a plane, if the instructor said, "well this parachute hasn't been tried before but we think it'll work!"

What's more the instructor might add, "I'm not sure how long this new kind of parachute will take to open. But we'll find out!"

And then he might add, "if it doesn't work we can try another parachute!"

 

[Himaginn]

I think Nigel has lost it:

Finance ministers from the world's leading economies have warned of a "shock" to the global economy if the UK leaves the EU.

But UKIP's Nigel Farage said the announcement was "no surprise" as it was "mates helping each other out".
"I'm not surprised that big government gets together to support David Cameron," he added.
"This is big banks, big business, big government all scratching each other's backs, I don't think that impresses voters."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35677385
The makeup of G20:

The Group of Twenty (also known as the G-20 or G20) is an international forum for the governments and central bank governors from 20 major economies. The members include 19 individual countries—Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Turkey, the United Kingdom and the United States—along with the European Union (EU).

Yep, all pals together.

 

[Himaginn]

Conjecture and opinion, Himmy. The Schengen agreement is in tatters already with EU country after country imposing border controls.

There's an almighty difference between one aspect of the "club" being in difficulty, which can be repaired in due course, and a total exit from the club, from which there is no return.

You think that following a Brexit the UK would sign up to the Schengen agreement? I very much doubt that at all (yes that's an opinion too)

I don't think you understand the EU at all.
Why would the Schengen Agreement apply to a country which is not in the EU, (or EFTA)? That's nonsensical.

If you mean would the UK be forced to accept the Schengen Agreement if they considered re-joining EU after a period of time outside of the EU, then absolutely "YES". It would be a pre-requisite of re-joining the EU (or EFTA)
And if UK were considering re-joining the EU (or EFTA) after some time of being outside, you can bet your bottom dollar, that a) it would be a condition that would be insisted on by EU, and b) it would be a condition that UK would have to accept otherwise why would they be re-joining. Because of economic ruin, obviously.

 

[Himaginn]

The truth is, no one knows what would happen following a Brexit. I'm sure (my opinion) that the EU would continue to trade with the UK. Forget all the doom and gloom from Himmy about following EU dictats and the four principles.

You keep repeating the same mistaken ideas.
Export to UK would continue. The only impediment being any import tariffs applied by UK, which would be counter-productive. (we've dealt with this repeatedly, consistently and in some depth)
Whereas exports to EU would be at the whim of EU. EU legislation would have to be complied with, no ifs, buts, or maybes!
We've dealt with this repeatedly, consistently and in depth!

and The EU already trade with China,,, Did they sign up to the four principles? Nah, Himmy is just stirring things with his opinions

It's not a "Free" Trade Agreement. Ae you sure you understand the principles of "Free" Trade Agreements, even though I've explained it to you?

The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's 2nd trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.
The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. However, the EU wants to ensure that China trades fairly, respects intellectual property rights and meets its WTO obligations.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/china/
This is a Trade Agreement. It is not a "Free" Trade Agreement.
China is not in the EU, at least last time I checked, therefore the 'four freedoms' are not available to China.

I'm off to watch Italy trounce Scotland, now.

 

[Himaginn]

Interesting quote from the WTO:

The data show a definite statistical link between freer trade and economic growth. Economic theory points to strong reasons for the link. All countries, including the poorest, have assets — human, industrial, natural, financial — which they can employ to produce goods and services for their domestic markets or to compete overseas. Economics tells us that we can benefit when these goods and services are traded. Simply put, the principle of “comparative advantage” says that countries prosper first by taking advantage of their assets in order to concentrate on what they can produce best, and then by trading these products for products that other countries produce best.
In other words, liberal trade policies — policies that allow the unrestricted flow of goods and services — sharpen competition, motivate innovation and breed success.

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/fact3_e.htm
It's worth reading more.
A Brexit vote in the referendum will be seriously damaging to UK's trade and thus its economic growth.

 

[jockscott]

It's not a "Free" Trade Agreement. Ae you sure you understand the principles of "Free" Trade Agreements, even though I've explained it to you?

I never said it was a "Free Trade " agreement that the EU has with China, simply a trade agreement. How come the EU didn't sign them up to the four principles then? (even though they are not part of Europe) So the EU choose who to trade with in the rest of the world , but impose their own, very strict, terms on EU members?

If you mean would the UK be forced to accept the Schengen Agreement if they considered re-joining EU after a period of time outside of the EU, then absolutely "YES". It would be a pre-requisite of re-joining the EU (or EFTA)
And if UK were considering re-joining the EU (or EFTA) after some time of being outside, you can bet your bottom dollar, that a) it would be a condition that would be insisted on by EU, and b) it would be a condition that UK would have to accept otherwise why would they be re-joining. Because of economic ruin, obviously.

Believe me the Schengen agreement won't survive, and your using conjecture again,, Theorising that the UK would ever want to re-join the EU.. You might as well add that "should the UK ever want to re-join the EU, we'd be forced to adopt the Euro as our currency, as a condition of being let back in. "
As has been stated by many politicians, leaving the EU is a step in the unknown, so all we can do is theorise about what may or may not happen. For all you know, you might be posting on here in 5 yrs time saying "Glad we left when we did."

 

[jockscott]

I'm off to watch Italy trounce Scotland, now.

Rather disappointed now are we ??

 

[Himaginn]

It's not a "Free" Trade Agreement. Ae you sure you understand the principles of "Free" Trade Agreements, even though I've explained it to you?

I never said it was a "Free Trade " agreement that the EU has with China, simply a trade agreement.

No but you did use the phrase "Trade Agreement" in the same breath, so to speak, as you were discussing trade with EU as shown below:

I'm sure (my opinion) that the EU would continue to trade with the UK. ... The EU already trade with China,...,

Thus I questioned whether you understood the concept of "Free Trade Agreements"
There is an additional advantage to being in a Free Trade Agreement, and that is that all and any goods can be traded except for certain banned/illegal goods or services.
Whereas in any other type of trade agreement, the agreement can specify which goods are outside of the agreement, as, no doubt, the agreement with China does so.

How come the EU didn't sign them up to the four principles then? (even though they are not part of Europe)

Are you for real? How can the four freedoms of the EU possibly apply to China? The clue is in the question.

So the EU choose who to trade with in the rest of the world ,

as can any other trading block, as long as it does not disregard any WTO treaties.

but impose their own, very strict, terms on EU members?

In what way?

If you mean would the UK be forced to accept the Schengen Agreement if they considered re-joining EU after a period of time outside of the EU, then absolutely "YES". It would be a pre-requisite of re-joining the EU (or EFTA)
And if UK were considering re-joining the EU (or EFTA) after some time of being outside, you can bet your bottom dollar, that a) it would be a condition that would be insisted on by EU, and b) it would be a condition that UK would have to accept otherwise why would they be re-joining. Because of economic ruin, obviously.

.., Theorising that the UK would ever want to re-join the EU..

I wasn't theorising anything of the sort. I was setting out the possible/probable conditions should that scenario arise.

You might as well add that "should the UK ever want to re-join the EU, we'd be forced to adopt the Euro as our currency, as a condition of being let back in. "

Good point. I hadn't considered that one. I suspect it could also apply.

As has been stated by many politicians, leaving the EU is a step in the unknown, so all we can do is theorise about what may or may not happen.

Like I said, if the Brexit-ers are recommending that we leave they ought to at least, spell out what models/directions they think we should use/take in order to survive and prosper. But they refuse to do so.

For all you know, you might be posting on here in 5 yrs time saying "Glad we left when we did."

And the reverse applies equally as much.

 

[jockscott]

I wasn't theorising anything of the sort. I was setting out the possible/probable conditions should that scenario arise.

In other words, theorising.

 

[Himaginn]

I'm off to watch Italy trounce Scotland, now.

Rather disappointed now are we ??

I was ambivalent about which side won, in that match. Scotland are already out of the running for a Grand Slam, or even a table Championship. They've already lost the Calcutta cup.
I did enjoy the game though.

 

[jockscott]

I'm off to watch Italy trounce Scotland, now.

Rather disappointed now are we ??

I was ambivalent about which side won, in that match. Scotland are already out of the running for a Grand Slam, or even a table Championship. They've already lost the Calcutta cup.
I did enjoy the game though.

Ahh one thing we can both agree on. Cracking match.