Two external wall lights to internal switch.

[Kevin Hayden]

Hi All,

As Rsgaz advised I'm going to try and get an electrician in to hopefully sort this out, but just to tidy up the thread;

When I first took the switch off the two twin earth cables were not connected to anything, they were just there comming into the switch box and the only cables that were connected were the 3 core for my main light. The 3 core went into the left hand gang on my switch and the right gang was empty.

As I was not sure what to do with the outside LHS loop cable I have not touched it. So it still comes out of the wall and goes back in. I connected one of my lights to the RHS cable, which was a single twin earth. I conected the brown wire to my live light connector and the blue wire to my neutral light connector. So at this moment I only have one light attached to what is the end of the cable that was left by the electrican.

As was suggested my switch now has my two blue wires connected in a terminal block and I have one brown wire going into L and one into L1 on my RHS gang.

I have now completly disconnected the work that I have done and my original main kitchen lights still do not work. Nothing has tripped and my downstairs lighs circuit breaker still turns my secondery kitchen lights on/off.

Could it be something that I have done that has blown the switches?

I have four different light circuits in my kitchen and now only two work. I have a main four gang switch controlling the lights and it is the lights controlled by the left hand gang of the four that are now not working (See pic). The original 2 gang switch that I have been looking at also controls one of these lights and as mentioned above is also not working (This 2 gang switch is by my back door and the main four gang is in the kitchen).

Thanks for your help with this, feel free to post anything further and I will update once the electricn has been.

 

[terryplumb]

When you first opened up the switch ,you say the two t/e cables were not connected to anything ,but how were they terminated ? There are 3 conductors in each t/e cable ,so did they terminate in connector blocks ?? With regard to the left hand gang ,which is wired for two way switching to one of the switches on your 4 gang , have you checked the three conductors to ensure they are not loose or broken at the terminals on the left gang. I assume you have not touched / opened up the 4 gang switch.

 

[333rocky333]

To date, no one has as yet picked up on this:-
The two lights must be connected in parallel - BUT are "daisy-chained", with one T&E going from the switch to the first light, where the parallel connection is made to the T&E going to the second light.

Thats because only Winston 1 and now yourself are concened about it, we all know what he refers to and the lights are connected one after another which is what "series " means, there is no such electrical term as daisy chained in the UK.
Series and parallel connection you refer to is more an electronics term, i struggle to find any situation where mains voltage lights would be wired in series as you imply, except in Bernards house

 

[flameport]

If the two cables at the switch are really power supply and out to the lights, then they must have been terminated in some way, otherwise they would have shorted to the metal backbox and tripped a circuit breaker or blown a fuse.
Or it was pure luck that prevented such a thing, and a fuse has now blown somewhere as a result of moving/connecting them.

Either way, some testing and further investigation will now be required.

 

[flameport]

To date, no one has as yet picked up on this:-

Not every mistake is relevant to the problem described.

 

[Kevin Hayden]

Hi Terryplumb,

The two t/e cables were not terminated in any way. The two cables were simply pushed to the back of the socket and have been like this for well over a year. I had to strip back the outer cable core to expose the three wires before I could connect as they were simply two straight cut pieces of cable. Best way to describe would be to picture cutting a piece of t/e in half. The result would be how I found the two cable ends in my switch.

As of yet I have not opened up the four gang switch, as in my eyes I have not done any work on the four light circuits that it controls. Obviously with two of my light circuits going down this changes things. As you say my 2 gang is wired for 2 way switching with the 4 gang on my main light.

But the big but is, as I have only worked on the previously empty right hand side of the 2 gang and not touched the left hand side which is linked, what on my circuit could have gone down the line and taken out just the left hand side of my 4 gang. The right hand side of this gang still works fine. I can possibly understand the main light as this has the two way switch, so has a physical link between the two switches, but the spots have also gone down. The only thing that links the main light to the spots is that they are both on the left hand side of my 4 gang.

Hence why I asked the question could I have blown something in the two switches? While I'm waiting for the electrician I will buy a new 2 and 4 gang switch as this should be an easy and cheap way to find out. I will re-connect them with out the new wiring and keep the RHS of the 2 gang empty.

 

[terryplumb]

Thanks for the info. As the two cables were not terminated ,just cut ends ,its highly unlikely that they would be energised ( not " live" in other words). So explaining why your light didn't work, and wouldn't cause damage to your switch. The most likely cause of your lights that were working ,and now don't ,is a loose connection at the left hand gang ( the three conductors ) have you checked ?
Edit.... When you started working on the switch I assume you isolated the supply , how did you achieve this ? Turning off the main switch ,or MCB ,fuse removal etc ? And the spotlights that now do not work are they mains voltage or ran off a transformer ?

 

[333rocky333]

Forget your two new wires in the 2 gang switch for now, the only cable left in there is a 3 core for the 2 way, therefore there is no Neutral for your new wall lights, so your electrician has run a new T and E to provide a L and N for your new lights, the second wire goes to the lights,you need to find the other end of that supply cable and thats likely where your problem lies.
Are there any standalone units near to the fusebox, its quite possible theirs an Rcd there and you inadvertently tripped it whilst stripping or working on the other wires, more so if the neutral and earth of the new supply is connected.
Buying switches is pointless, unless you heard a large bang and see a big flash its unlikely you would blow a switch with what you did.

 

[winston1]

Thats because only Winston 1 and now yourself are concened about it, we all know what he refers to and the lights are connected one after another which is what "series " means, there is no such electrical term as daisy chained in the UK.
Series and parallel connection you refer to is more an electronics term, i struggle to find any situation where mains voltage lights would be wired in series as you imply, except in Bernards house

If you are fiddling with electrics it is essential you know what you are doing and do not use incorrect terms. Nor can you assume others will know what you mean.

I am not being pedantic here, electricity is dangerous and the use of incorrect terms could have serious consequences.

I disagree that series and parallel are more of an electronics term.
Christmas tree lights are wired..........in series.
Ceiling spots are wired..........in parallel.
Airport runway lights are wired..........in series.
The OPs two lights are wired..........in parallel.

 

[bernardgreen]

be wired in series as you imply, except in Bernards house

Two 230 volt incandescant lamps in series across 230 volt gives perfect dimming.

Christmas tree lights are wired..........in series.

Original ( 1930's ) domestic Christmas trees had 20 lamps each 12 volt wired in series, more recently 80 lamps each 3 volts.

Modern Christmas tree lights are often wired in parallel as here....

560 lamps each 24 volt in 4 strings supplied from 2 toroidal transformers.

Airport runway lights are wired..........in series.

Each lamps has its own current to current transformer. The primaries of these transformers are wired in series and the current through hte seres liio is controlled to alter the brightness of the lamps. A failed lamp ( open circuit ) does not affect other lamps.

 

[333rocky333]

If you are fiddling with electrics it is essential you know what you are doing and do not use incorrect terms. Nor can you assume others will know what you mean.

I am not being pedantic here, electricity is dangerous and the use of incorrect terms could have serious consequences.

I disagree that series and parallel are more of an electronics term.
Christmas tree lights are wired..........in series.
Ceiling spots are wired..........in parallel.
Airport runway lights are wired..........in series.
The OPs two lights are wired..........in parallel.

The op wrote
(2).Then cut the twin and earth loop coming out of my external wall and connect to my first light.

"Cutting the wire loop will give me, two lives (brown) going to my live connector on my light.
Two neutral (blue) going to my neutral connector on my light.
Two earth’s going to my earth connector on my light."

Obviously the actual Lamps/Bulbs will not be connected in series, as said the actual Light fittings are in series.


Read more: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/two-external-wall-lights-to-internal-switch.507128/#ixzz5O5ezIsim

 

[Kevin Hayden]

Hi Terryplumb, thanks for comming back to me, yes I have checked for a loose cable on my left hand 2 gang switch. I had an old switch in the shed, so I have put that on just to rule out any loose connections. As for isolating the supply before starting work then I turned off my 'lights down' fuse on my main box, which controlls all my downstairs lighting. The spots that do not work are mains voltage.

Hi Rocky333, thanks for the info and advise on buying new switches. The only RCD which I know about is the one on my main box, and this has not tripped (See Pic). As for bangs and flashes then I did not see/hear anything when I re-connected the 'lights down' fuse. Not 100% sure what you mean when you say 'standalone units'?

Thanks.

 

[333rocky333]

. Not 100% sure what you mean when you say 'standalone units'?

Thanks.

If for instance he come off a circuit, for example your upstairs lights, which has no Rcd protection, rather than faff about with the consumer unit, sometimes an Rcd is located elsewhere in its own enclosure.

 

[Kevin Hayden]

Ok, the electrition did move the position of the downstairs lights fuse on my main box. If you look on the picture I posted he moved the downstairs lights from 'position 2' to 'position 7'. I belive this was something to do with the RCD.

 

[333rocky333]

ok, then hes moved it from a NON Rcd protected way to a Rcd protected way, therefore its unlikely you have any other RCDs elsewhere