Can you have a socket on a 20A ring?

[ban-all-sheds]

I can't speak for John, but I am certainly not failing to recognise that.

I recognise that, and I imagine that BAS does also.

Useful to bear in mind in life, John, that you can change yourself, but you can't change others.

You're a smart guy, it's a shame you waste it by being an arsenal hole. But seems you enjoy the games, so good luck.

However life is too short to listen to you and it doesn't seem the mods are going to save us any time.​

Happy with that? Think it fair, and a reasonable and justified response to Post #52 above?

You should do, because when John D said it to me for doing what you have done here, you expressed agreement with, and approval of, it.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Be that as it may...

What you have deemed irrelevant is the very point I am discussing from which you two keep veering. Namely:

it is that if the rest of the world doesn't have them, then 3A boiler protection cannot be necessary.

That it might be a regulation does not alter that.

I'm not veering away from it.

I'm trying to point out that it is utterly irrelevant.

We either have, or do not have, a regulatory requirement for a 3A fuse in the supply. I'd not be surprised if we don't, it's the sort of old-wives-tale that pipe fitters are inclined to take as gospel, cf. the desire to "cross-bond" all the pipes entering a boiler.

And we are so not discussing whether it is needed, or how other countries manage without, or if their experiences prove that it is not needed.

This whole discussion started because of this:

.....supplying the boiler and any associated components pump, thermostat, programmer etc as applicable. This should have a 3A (or 5A occasionally) fuse in it to protect the boiler.

WRONG. The fuse is to protect the cable between the FCU and the boiler. All reputable boilers have internal fuses for protection. If this was not the case how would boilers operate in other countries where FCUs are not available or compliant?

That's what we are discussing - should you have a 3A fuse or not?

IF the regulations say you should, then you should, and what regulations in other jurisdictions say is of no concern.

IF the regulations do not say that you should, then you don't have to - we all know that, and have no need to concern ourselves with what the regulations in other jurisdictions say.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The external components are supplied via the boiler. The fuse is to protect the cable to the boiler as I said. Manufacturers instructions are for guidance only and don't have to be followed if they are wrong as they clearly are in this case.

They do if they reflect a regulation which applies to the installation and use of their appliance.

Gas regulations are nothing to do with electrics.

No, but they are to do with the installation and use of gas appliances, and they could indeed impose a requirement for the fusing of the supply.

Could well be why boilers are internally fused at around 2 to 3 amps.

Indeed it could well be. But if our regulations require the supply to be fused at 3A, irrespective of what the boiler has internally, then our regulations require the supply to be fused at 3A, no matter what the boiler has internally, and no matter what your thoughts are on the matter.

 

[winston1]

But if our regulations require the supply to be fused at 3A, irrespective of what the boiler has internally, then our regulations require the supply to be fused at 3A, no matter what the boiler has internally, and no matter what your thoughts are on the matter.

But do they? So far no one has provided proof one way or another.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Does the fact that Britain has a Monarch, whether I like it or not and can do nothing about it, preclude me from discussing republicanism and pointing out that a Monarch is of no benefit to the population and other countries manage without one to no detriment?

 

[winston1]

Does the fact that Britain has a Monarch, whether I like it or not and can do nothing about it, preclude me from discussing republicanism and pointing out that a Monarch is of no benefit to the population and other countries manage without one to no detriment?

No it doesn't, but it would off topic in this thread.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Does the fact that Britain has a Monarch, whether I like it or not and can do nothing about it, preclude me from discussing republicanism and pointing out that a Monarch is of no benefit to the population and other countries manage without one to no detriment?

No, it doesn't.

But the issue here has not been the desirability or justification of 3A fusing, with or without reference to what other countries do:

And we are so not discussing whether it is needed, or how other countries manage without, or if their experiences prove that it is not needed.

This whole discussion started because of this:

.....supplying the boiler and any associated components pump, thermostat, programmer etc as applicable. This should have a 3A (or 5A occasionally) fuse in it to protect the boiler.

WRONG. The fuse is to protect the cable between the FCU and the boiler. All reputable boilers have internal fuses for protection. If this was not the case how would boilers operate in other countries where FCUs are not available or compliant?

That's what we are discussing - should you have a 3A fuse or not?

IF the regulations say you should, then you should, and what regulations in other jurisdictions say is of no concern.

IF the regulations do not say that you should, then you don't have to - we all know that, and have no need to concern ourselves with what the regulations in other jurisdictions say.

​

So if you want the monarchy/republic analogy, is would be like this,

Does the fact that if Britain had a Monarch, it would be whether I like it or not, and would be able to do nothing about it, preclude me from discussing republicanism and pointing out that as a Monarch is of no benefit to the population and that as other countries manage without one to no detriment we therefore don't have one.​

if it is to match the issue being discussed, rather than one not being discussed.

 

[John D v2.0]

I think the point is we can't look at the fact that other countries don't require it as proof that it's not beneficial. That only proves that it's not essential.
We have to use other means to prove that it's not helpful. In fact we have to prove that the cost to benefit is the wrong way, which is even harder.
Also we have to take into account the cost of this debate!
I'd recommend just fitting the things and not worry about it!
Unless it's your own house in which case don't bother.

 

[securespark]

Yes, it does.

No it doesn't

He's behind you!!!

 

[SUNRAY]

What a load of utter tosh, this is really bad and probably factually incorrect from most posters point of view.

Boilers per se are potentially only one component in a heating system, the FCU fuse is frequently there to protect other parts of the system including switch contacts that may only be rated at 2 or 3A or so.

Oh and BAS stop making statements that you know nothing about and cannot possibly back up.

 

[JohnW2]

What a load of utter tosh, this is really bad and probably factually incorrect from most posters point of view. .... Boilers per se are potentially only one component in a heating system, the FCU fuse is frequently there to protect other parts of the system including switch contacts that may only be rated at 2 or 3A or so. ... Oh and BAS stop making statements that you know nothing about and cannot possibly back up.

To be fair, if I understand correctly, BAS appears to be the main one saying that, IF there is indeed a regulation which requires an FCU with a 3A fuse, then that's what people should do.

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

What a load of utter tosh, this is really bad and probably factually incorrect from most posters point of view.

Boilers per se are potentially only one component in a heating system, the FCU fuse is frequently there to protect other parts of the system including switch contacts that may only be rated at 2 or 3A or so.

WRONG. The fuse is to protect the cable not the things on the end of it. The other parts of the heating system should be internally protected and anyway are normally connected via the boiler with its own internal fuse.

Again look at other countries where these systems are fitted and FCUs are not available and non compliant.

 

[winston1]

To be fair, if I understand correctly, BAS appears to be the main one saying that, IF there is indeed a regulation which requires an FCU with a 3A fuse, then that's what people should do.

Kind Regards, John

As no one has yet dug up such a regulation we must presume there is no such regulation.

 

[securespark]

These installer instruction stipulate 3 times to check the fuse (3A)...

 

[securespark]

https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/fuse-size.64317/