Sub-Board - Second Consumer Unit

[bernardgreen]

I being the person responsible for the design, construction, inspection & testing of the electrical installation (as indicated by my signature below), particulars of which are described above, having exercised reasonable skill and care when carrying out the design, construction, inspection & testing hereby CERTIFY that the said work for which I have been responsible is to the best of my knowledge and belief in accordance with BS 7671:2008, amended to 2015 except for the departures, if any, detailed as follows:

Where does this declaration say that the person who made it is a "registered electrician" or has any qualifications relating to a process by which he or she has acquired the "skills and care" necessary to carry out the work.

It is possible for electrical work to be carried out with the "reasonable skill and care" such that it is in accordance with BS 7671 by a person who has no formal qualifications.

Only if some one questions the person's skill and care does that person have to justify their signature and ability. Questions may be asked by a Building Control Officer, an Insurance Company Underwriter or other interested party.

Two points

(1) The person must be able to satisfy the questioner that reasonable skill and care was used and the standard of work does meet a recognised standard of safety. This can be difficult if the person does not have the necessary skills, care and knowledge of what is a safe standard of work. Difficult but not impossible

(2) Some installations signed off by qualified electricians are not carried out with "reasonable skill and care" and might only pay lip service to BS 7671. Some of these are discovered by random inspections by Building Control, the client or "scheme" managers before any harm is done. Some are only discovered after the event by Fire Investigation Officers.

EDIT some text struck out

 

[JohnW2]

Where does this declaration say that the person who made it is a "registered electrician" or has any qualifications relating to a process by which he or she has acquired the "skills and care" necessary to carry out the work.

Clearly nowhere.

It is possible for electrical work to be carried out with the "reasonable skill and care" such that it is in accordance with BS 7671 by a person who has no formal qualifications.

Indeed so - although some in this discussion, although they are citing a declaration in a BS7671 form, appear to be talking about 'self-certification' (actually 'self-notification') - which is a totally different matter, which does require some qualifications (or, at least, 'qualifications')

Only if some one questions the person's skill and care does that person have to justify their signature and ability. Questions may be asked by a Building Control Officer, an Insurance Company Underwriter or other interested party.

If anything were to be 'questioned' by any such third party (or even a court, should it get there) it would be the degree of competence which was exercised/exhibited by the person who undertook some particular work (presumably work that was being accused of having done some harm, or at risk of doing harm), not anything to do with the signing of any declaration on some piece of paper.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I would be very surprised if the great majority here did not care about honesty, morality and decency, but I don't think an 'Electrics' forum is a place to preach about such things.

I'm afraid it is when people "preach" the opposite.

For example:

I do think that, in common sense terms (and the spirit of the 'proper' way), we get over-excited about this. Provided that none of the 'construction' work is concealed (i.e. remains totally open to inspection), that the signatory regards the design as acceptable and compliant (even if he/she might have done it differently) and provided that the results of their I&T are satisfactory, then I see no (common sense) problem with someone signing a 'single' declaration (even 'retrospectively'), even if they did not personally carry out some (or all) of the 'construction', do you?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The size the spark chose when he ran it, of course.

Look on his invoice - it might say there, but if not it will definitely say on the schedule associated with the EIC he gave you.

He’s telling me 16mm I think it’s overkill

Whether it is or not, if he's already installed it.....

 

[JohnW2]

There is a difference between 'preaching' and 'observing'. I was observing that, in the situation I described, I see no reason why the person mentioned should not be allowed to sign a declaration (honestly), so it is just the wording of the declaration which creates the 'dishonesty. As I asked, I wonder how third parties would react if the person signing the declaration crossed out the "having carried out" clause (or modified it appropriately) - thereby turning it into an honest declaration.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Well in that case this was just an observation:

I appreciate that I am in a very small minority here for caring about the last three.

It is up to each of us to decide how important we think things like honesty, morality etc are, and thus how important it is to remind others how important they are.

 

[JohnW2]

Indeed, it's a personal opinion/decision - but it's also a personal opinion as to whether or not an Electrics forum is the place to remind people about such values - and I've indicated my personal opinion about that. Everyone to their own, I suppose.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Absolutely every place, be it real or virtual, is a place to remind people about such values if they seem to be ignoring them.

Unlike some, I do not check my values into a cloakroom when I enter the forum and leave them there until I depart.

 

[FRAN1870]

Really appreciate the notion of being honest and having the right interpretation of who can do what etc. I think it’s important to observe that the fact I’m asking a professional to help design and hook it up proves that I respect the regs etc.

I’m happy to take guidance and if the sparky has to run it to be legal then I’ll let him do it... I just don’t like paying premium sparky rates for things like channeling into walls and pulling cables. There’s certain things I’m perfectly capable of doing myself.

Anyway .... I assume he will end up using 16mm

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I just don’t like paying premium sparky rates for things like channeling into walls and pulling cables. There’s certain things I’m perfectly capable of doing myself.

Then

find

an

electrician

who

is

happy

for

you

to

do

some

of

the

work

yourself

and

agree

with

him

before

you

do

any

exactly

what

and

how.

 

[333rocky333]

Appendix 6, although informative in the 17th suggests the form be signed by a competent person and competent person was defined in the Definitions of the regs,
However in the 18th it is now a skilled person and the skilled person definition actually includes electrical training amongst other things.

 

[JohnW2]

Appendix 6, although informative in the 17th suggests the form be signed by a competent person and competent person was defined in the Definitions of the regs, However in the 18th it is now a skilled person and the skilled person definition actually includes electrical training amongst other things.

All true. However, what it requires of a skilled person is that, in relation to the nature of the work to be undertaken, the person shall have "adequate education, training and practical skills, and be able to perceive risks and avoid hazards which electricity can create".

It says nothing about 'formal' training or qualifications, and 'education' can be self-taught and 'training' can be 'self-training'. As I hope you know, I am not one for 'blowing my own trumpet', but I would dare to suggest that I am probably at least as able to satisfy those requirements as is many an electrician (and even more, allegedly 'qualified', 'electricians'!), even though I have never been anywhere near anything remotely like an (electrics) 'training course', and, although I have a good few 'qualifications', none is remotely related to the activities of an electrician.

I therefore think that this animal called a 'skilled person' is, per the definition, simply a 'competent' person (in the everyday sense of the word).

Kind Regards, John

 

[FRAN1870]

Then

find

an

electrician

who

is

happy

for

you

to

do

some

of

the

work

yourself

and

agree

with

him

before

you

do

any

exactly

what

and

how.

Why so hostile fella? I really don’t understand what the problem is here?
My sparky is happy for me to help him do things like pull cables and channel plaster etc? He’s happy to tell me what to do for basic first fixes and then use his superior skills to hook it up ... the only question I have here was seeking a second opinion about the 10mm or 16mm cable?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

the only question I have here was seeking a second opinion about the 10mm or 16mm cable?

It is his decision.

Not yours.

Not mine.

Not anybody else's.

His.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Whssign

• Taylortwocities
• 16 Jul 2016

What he said