Scottish Govt consultation to regulate "electrician"

[OwainDIYer]

Currently anyone can call themselves an electrician, without the need for any qualifications or competency.
The Scottish Government is gathering information and views on whether regulations should be introduced in relation to electricians. While the focus of the consultation is on domestic work carried out for individual consumers, it will also apply to commercial and industrial work.

https://consult.gov.scot/energy-and...nsultation-on-the-regulation-of-electricians/

 

[SparkyTris]

I wonder what is wrong with the status quo? are we demonstrably less electrically safe in Scotland?
I am not an electrician in the Ban-All-Sheds sense of the word, though many of my customers see me as such and I am probably more competent than some card-carrying "Electricians"
Personally I feel that there is a danger associated with licensing: blind trust in the rubberstamp.

 

[bernardgreen]

I wonder what is wrong with the status quo? are we demonstrably less electrically safe in Scotland?

The status quo and related laws and regulations allow some people who are incompetent to install and/or service electrical services and/or equipment.

In some cases ( such as one recently mentioned on this forum ) these incompetent people create serious hazards to life and property by their actions and yet they can continue to advertise themselves as "Electricians" and thus continue to put their new customers at risk.

 

[ericmark]

At one time it was regulated, we had what was called a closed shop, unless you were a Union member you could not work, however legislation was passed outlawing the closed shop system, it is debatable if the schemes are legal, or if they also fall into the legislation which bans closed shop? However the use of the LABC to also allow others to work on domestic electrics in England and Wales seems to have resulted in it not being classed as closed shop, as there is another method.

However until January we have an agreement with Europe on free passage of tradesmen, and we can't stop the Polish for example practising their trade in the UK, so the UK rules have to allow so many qualifications to be used to show competency that it becomes impossible to regulate, now we are leaving the EU it would be possible, but we would need to grant grandfather rights, etc.

When I went to work in Hong Kong before the take over, they accepted my UK qualifications to allow me to have a radio licence, they would also allow me to have a radio licence on the strength of having a UK radio licence, and this is an important part of any licensing for skill, be it a driving licence, radio licence or any other license you need some method to quickly grant a reciprocal licence.

So firm John Jones electrical from Pantygurdal in Wales can travel to Uckhigh in Scotland and wire an estate of houses without having to get all his labour force to take exams to show they can do the job.

 

[EFLImpudence]

As long as they introduce similar regulation for politicians.

 

[bernardgreen]

At one time it was regulated, we had what was called a closed shop, unless you were a Union member you could not work,

Regulation my foot. Sorry Eric but that system was corrupt......

You could be a card carrying paid up member of the union and still be totally incompetent at the trade of that union. The union card however meant you were considered to be able to do the work. If someone realised that a card carrying member was incompetent and tried to prevent that person working then a strike would often happen.

In fact if a union had decided a task required 3 persons when in reality only 2 were needed then the 3rd person could be totally clue less and often did little more than sit around doing nothing. But he or she was qualified to the union's "standard of skill". Some times the 3rd person would clock on, go home and come back a few hours later to clock off. That was legal ( union rules ) provided the person clocked themselves On and Off and no one did it for them.

I was sent to the Head Office of a union to service a faulty intercom system, I was asked for my Union Card, I didn't have one, ( never had one ) so was unable to work in the building. They phoned my boss to send a union member. He told them there was no one in the firm with the necessary card, it was me or the system would remain faulty. They issued me with a Union Card without asking any questions about my qualifications to do the work.

 

[SUNRAY]

I'd much prefer to work with a middle aged highly experienced DIYer whan a 12 year old know it all whose just completed his 2 week [or whatever it is now] course.

 

[SUNRAY]

Regulation my foot. Sorry Eric but that system was corrupt......

You could be a card carrying paid up member of the union and still be totally incompetent at the trade of that union. The union card however meant you were considered to be able to do the work. If someone realised that a card carrying member was incompetent and tried to prevent that person working then a strike would often happen.

In fact if a union had decided a task required 3 persons when in reality only 2 were needed then the 3rd person could be totally clue less and often did little more than sit around doing nothing. But he or she was qualified to the union's "standard of skill". Some times the 3rd person would clock on, go home and come back a few hours later to clock off. That was legal ( union rules ) provided the person clocked themselves On and Off and no one did it for them.

I was sent to the Head Office of a union to service a faulty intercom system, I was asked for my Union Card, I didn't have one, ( never had one ) so was unable to work in the building. They phoned my boss to send a union member. He told them there was no one in the firm with the necessary card, it was me or the system would remain faulty. They issued me with a Union Card without asking any questions about my qualifications to do the work.

I was asked to look at a public address system in a factory which had always worked well until a carpet fitter removed and reinstated kit to be able to move the rack.
The rack wiring was a mess; taped joints, choccy block etc and some plugs/cables very obviously in the wrong place.
Effectively I stripped the system, labling every wire as I did.

At that point I was asked for my union details and informed I was unable to work there without it.

I packed my tools in front of the very abrupt shop steward and receptionist and started leaving. The boss was soon called and an agreement was soon formulated for me to be issued with temporary membership of NGA to continue.

 

[ericmark]

Two accounts of the speed at which a Union could adapt and issue cards, how fast do you think the scheme operators could issue cards in the same situation? Hours, Days, or weeks?

And can the adapt to cope, so if a IT guy needs to work in a Welsh kitchen how fast can he be authorised to do the work? Be is scheme membership or LABC inspectors.

 

[SUNRAY]

Two accounts of the speed at which a Union could adapt and issue cards, how fast do you think the scheme operators could issue cards in the same situation? Hours, Days, or weeks?

And can the adapt to cope, so if a IT guy needs to work in a Welsh kitchen how fast can he be authorised to do the work? Be is scheme membership or LABC inspectors.

It totally highlights the stupidity of the 'qualification route' for these tckets.

Equally well I have carried a ECS card as wireman/panel builder for a number of years to give access to building sites. Suddenly it was not adequate for a particular site where they'd only accept 'JIB Approved Electrician' status for electrical work. The site and JIB only took 18hrs, 4pm to 10am to get it issued but only valid for nominated sites (one).

The whole system 'as existing' isn't only flawed it's unfit for purpose.

As mentioned earlier I'd much rather work with highly experienced/competent unqualified personel than some of the attitude bareing youngsters with fast track qualifications. EDIT: and for that matter some of the longer term personel who have never progressed from the initial training.

 

[JohnW2]

As has been implied, the worst of all wordls would probably be to have legally-recognised 'electricians' (or any other tradespeople), presumably in the basis of 'qualifications' and/or experience, but to not strictly regulate and police the activities of such people - since that could result in the apparent 'legitimisation' of the incompetent and, as has been suggested, might make it more difficult to deal with situations of incompetence involving such people.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I know what you mean, I worked for a firm who had three electricians, two of us had learn new things over the years, and could work on nearly everything on site, in the main the first tool used was the PC, interrogating the PLC was normally the first step, but one electrician about 2 years from retirement just did not see why he should bother learning new skills, it would be wrong to say he was a bad electrician, he was very good, and I am sure he could tell you exactly how to set up the dash pots on the star/delta starter to give the required delay etc. But we did not have any starters with dash pots, most were either soft start or inverter drives.

Trying to explain how a three phase motor could not be connected to the three phase supply but needed connecting to a single phase supply through an inverter took some doing, can't teach an old dog new tricks etc. Many of our three phase motors were wired delta for 230 volt, not star for 400 volt.

As to health and safety, we had as with most machines today emergency stops, but a lack of interconnection to air system, so hit the E-stop and air motor still ran.

What has happened mainly due to Part P is we have a them and us situation, the domestic electrician and the commercial electricians no longer swap around, each part of the trade has become specialist, shop fitting, office work, factories, petrol/chemical, installation all seem to have put up barriers to stop electricians swapping between them, the whole idea of the journey man after the apprenticeship seems to have gone. And even at my age, I have never made off a mineral insulated cable except in collage.

But come the floods and a load of houses all need rewiring together, where in the 90's tradesmen from all areas would be able to turn to house bashing, today any emergency and there is a lack of labour.

 

[JohnW2]

As I suggested, it's a general issue. Whenever there is a legal requirement for someone to be licensed/registered/whatever to do something, the public can reasonably expect that such licensing/registration indicates that a person is, and continues to be, competent to do what ever it is, and that requires ongoing monitoring/policing of their activities and their continuing competence.

That would apply to legally-recognised "electricians', but it also applies to a vast number of other things - drivers of cars, pilots of aircraft, doctors etc. etc.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

At one time it was regulated, we had what was called a closed shop, unless you were a Union member you could not work, however legislation was passed outlawing the closed shop system, it is debatable if the schemes are legal, or if they also fall into the legislation which bans closed shop? However the use of the LABC to also allow others to work on domestic electrics in England and Wales seems to have resulted in it not being classed as closed shop, as there is another method.

That only applied to getting a job, working for an employer, rather than for an end customer. Absolutely anyone could say they were an electrician and work for the customer, just as they can now. Part P was supposed to address some of this.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The server seems to be acting up