Updating electrics. NICEIC - complete rewire.

[SUNRAY]

Christ...now I know I'm ancient.

A really old house built when I was 13....

Yeah that tickled me too, I was 24

 

[ericmark]

Christ...now I know I'm ancient.

A really old house built when I was 13....

That was around when may last house was built, could not afford the mortgage, so went out to work in Algeria 1980. I was in my 20's then, old houses were built in a rush, and by now likely rewired many times, maybe Rome was not built in a day, but that house was. But 1882 the first edition came out, and through the time we have required more and more safety features, exposed knife switches are no longer used, and also rubber cable, and in 1966 we decided lights needed an earth wire taking to them, so after 1966 the wiring in most homes is still good today, in the 70's central heating was still not always fitted as standard, my house as built did not have central heating, just a single gas fire in centre of the house. But most people had central heating fitted within the first few years. However this means every house in the estate had different central heating, and some of the early systems were fitted by plumbers who did not always follow the rule book.

Kitchens were the same, nearly everyone had the kitchen lay out changed, and the kitchen fitters of the day, were only interested in if it looked good and worked, likely never seen a regulations book.

I have talked about a few times, about how far back one can go to get tradesmen to correct errors, we see with cars recalls going back nearly 20 years, but I would say since we should get an electrical installation condition report (EICR) done every 10 years or change of occupant which ever is the sooner, then really 10 years is about the limit. But when selling a house solicitors still ask for insurance where the paperwork is missing to cover for faults due to poor workmanship. Although never heard of anyone claiming.

What seems to me odd, is there is no fixed qualification required to do an EICR, nor any hard and fast rules to what is tested, or what is a pass mark, you will see loads of questions on this forum about should XYZ be considered unsatisfactory.

With a rental property you need to be careful, but with owner occupied who is going to report to LABC when not to standard, seems trading standards have got interested with some house in Pembrokeshire, but only after it was sold, it seems to a council worker who knew the right people to ask.

When I moved into this house I was shown the installation certificate, it seemed a bit suspect, readings did not seem to be what expected for such a large house, and it turned out reason was it only covered part of the house, but as long as you have some documentation, then it seems solicitors don't really know what it means, fact the compliance certificate and/or completion certificate were missing, did not seem to worry them.

 

[trwils]

Thanks all, he is coming next week to assess the electrics then ill ask about the points raised here

One thing that bugged me a bit, with our old wylex style cartridges.

When he rewired a light for us, he pulled the light switch cartridges first- but didnt turn the main power off before pulling them, im sure of it because i asked if i needed to reset the boiler

Everything i have read on here says that is a huge no no (we have had no issues since but its stuck in my mind)
Edit, explained to me on another thread why it was safe (electrician knowing no lights on as middle of day)

 

[trwils]

My point was use of plastic pipes or coupling So plumbing work can result in a RCD being required even when nothing electrical has changed, and the regulations not being retrospective does not help.

Any "New" installation will require RCD protection, but what I was talking about was an installation which was complying with regulations in 1979, and why it needs work doing to it today.

An electrician does not need to notify, it is the owner who must ensure any work requiring notifying is notified either by using the LABC route or using an electrician who is a scheme member, a scheme member electrician must notify work which requires notifying. As a result the use of paperwork, adverts, including any sign writing on vehicles which indicates the electrician is a scheme member is illegal if he is not a scheme member. But if he does not have anything which shows NICEIC or NAPIT then the electrician is not breaking any law, however he must issue an installation certificate or minor works as that will be needed to be submitted to the LABC by the owner, not to issue one shows the electrician is fully aware he is doing the work illegally.

It has always eluded me why the LABC does not operate a permit to work system, had they done this, then the electrician could not claim he didn't know the owner had not registered the work, but is seems the registration is really a tax, and nothing more, when I used the LABC route with parents house, the LABC inspector did not even pop his head through the door before issuing the completion certificate, I took the installation certificate to the shire hall and the completion certificate arrived in the post. And when I could not find it on coming to sell the house, told it would take 4 months to get a replacement and would need to pay council for workers time to find it. I would have thought it would have been part of the solicitors search, and they would want copies from the LABC as any copies I have could have been doctored, but clearly not. Had it been any more than a tax, then one would have been able to get copies in the same ways as birth certificates etc.

But the permit to work was verbal only, the LABC inspector looked at out test equipment before we started, and inquired about our qualifications, and once satisfied, he simply said go ahead and submit the installation certificate when finished, no paperwork was issued to say I could work, so had I been using another electrician he would have simply had to have taken my word.

As to what needs notifying varies thought out the UK principalities and nations, the English tend to forget the rules in Wales are not the same, as to third party work, not permitted in Wales, only England, but the registered electrician must be in control, he does not need to do the work himself, or we could have no apprenticeships, he can work with electricians mates, and other workers in his control. So he could have the builder dig and fill a trench for example. Not sure about sole traders they may have different rules, but a company can have many people working on one job, so we have a grey area, some one may work though an agency for a firm, and be covered by the firms scheme membership, but have no record of him actually working for the firm. My son worked as an inspector for one firm, I know he needed to show the firm his C&G 2391, but when he started he had to take over work in progress, and when he left he left other work in progress, and he had no direct contact with the scheme provider, it was the firm who was registered not him personally, not like an MOT inspector where it is the person who is registered. So rather unclear who can do what with larger firms.

Originally there were around 15 scheme providers, who could not pass info between them as to any electricians they had kicked off the scheme, there has to be more than one, as other wise it would be a closed shop, which was made illegal, aimed at Unions, but the schemes are basic the same thing as the Unions, so Unions were stopped from policing who was considered as qualified, and the scheme providers took over instead. If either NICEIC or NAPIT stop doing the work, then it become illegal, so all would need to use LABC.

This is a great post, and explains to me why people would let their registration lapse, especially if doing more site work sub contracted than specific domestic work.

It does seem however from reading this that i have to factor in a fee to notify LABC that i am having the work done - i am speaking to him tonight (the electrician) and will ask for clarification on that.

Having read up on building regulations it seems it is fineable! i dread to think how many people get tradesmen in and have no idea they are supposed to notify.

 

[ericmark]

In Wales, England may be diffrent, it is £100 plus vat for first £2000 worth of work, problem is electrical work rarely reaches that limit, also if the LABC decides they want to use a third party inspector, you also pay for him.

I did one job using LABC, but next time my meters were out of calibration and it was not worth paying £200 plus to DIY, just not worth the hassle, and due to social services being involved not really an option to just break the law.

 

[JohnW2]

My point was use of plastic pipes or coupling ..... So plumbing work can result in a RCD being required even when nothing electrical has changed ....

I'm afraid that I still don't understand. How on earth can the appearance of plastic pipes or couplings in a bathroom make any difference to whether or not SB may be omitted? Furthermore ....

.... and the regulations not being retrospective does not help.

Why not (even if the plastic pipes/fittings did make a difference)?

What am I missing?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

BS7671:2008 allowed one to omit bonding in the bathroom, if a RCD is fitted, so we have either bonding or RCD, often work in a bathroom results in loss of bonding, due to the use of plastic pipes, so due to non electricial work, the electrics are affected.

The same is true for services into the home, although now not allowed to use water or gas pipes as an earth, it was common to do that in the 50's, so although the home complied when built with regulations valid at that time, without any alterations to the electricial system, it now would not comply with regulations valid when installed.

I was very surprised to find no earth at parents house, it was there when I was a boy, as ruptured a fuse with a line to earth fault, so some how in 30 years it had been lost.

Most likely when new water main put in.

 

[EFLImpudence]

BS7671:2008 allowed one to omit bonding in the bathroom,

In my opinion, "omit" - as in 'leave out'- is the wrong word.

Something that is not necessary is not "omitted'; it is simply 'not fitted' because it is not necessary.

if a RCD is fitted, so we have either bonding or RCD,

Well, sort of, but it is not really a choice to be made.

The RCD makes the use of bonding unnecessary.

often work in a bathroom results in loss of bonding, due to the use of plastic pipes, so due to non electricial work, the electrics are affected.

Because it is rendered unnecessary and pointless.

Does the use of plastic switches result in loss of earthing?
I suppose it does, if you want to word it like that, but only because there is nothing to earth.

 

[JohnW2]

BS7671:2008 allowed one to omit bonding in the bathroom, if a RCD is fitted, so we have either bonding or RCD, often work in a bathroom results in loss of bonding, due to the use of plastic pipes, so due to non electricial work, the electrics are affected.

Sorry, but I still don't get it ..

If there was RCD protection (and the other couple of requirements satisfied) then there was not (and still isn't today) any requirement for SB at all.

If there was not any RCD protection the SB was (and still is) required, but there was never any requirement for SB to be applied to anything that was not an extraneous-c-p (extraneous to the room), so I don't see how any plumbing activities could increase the requirements for SB - if anything, some things previously requiring supplementary bonding might not have required it after inclusion of plastic bits in the plumbing.

As I asked before, what I am missing?

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

pulled the light switch cartridges first- but didnt turn the main power off before pulling them,

Not appropriate to remove fuses live even if there is no load on the circuit as there are plenty of other things that can go wrong.

Such as the fuseholder breaking, or the contacts pulling out of the board with the fuse, or some buffoon has installed the fusewire and left it too long so it's exposed at the top/bottom of the fuse where your fingers go.

 

[trwils]

Well i am unsure what to do now

I have had 3 electricians in the house now. The first guy was qualified but wasnt registered and i was going to proceed and get work separately checked. However it turned out he wanted to do everything from start to finish purely in cash, and i am not comfortable with something as big as a new CU purely paid for in cash with no transaction record - i want some sort of invoice/transfer record...or is that being paranoid?

The second guy checked the ancient cable for me, top bloke and i would have hired in a flash, he also thought we would get away without a rewire - but is booked up for months for rewires and CU

The third took one look at our box, pronounced it 'an old wylex and thus dangerous' and said 'we will see what the condition report says but i am expecting a full rewire to be required.

Are the wirelex really that dangerous? I have a spare set of fuse wire in case of it blowing, and know how to do it and if i really do need a rewire i would prefer to leave the project until i have a bit more saved cash, maybe 6 months from now (in the last 12 months i have had new roofline, new boiler, new bathroom and i am short of cash).

But he made it sound as if the wylex boxes are death traps... which i dont understand as every device is seperately fused...dont get me wrong he is the expert but i dont get why he was so different view to the other 2 electricians. I also dont understand how i am still alive after 20 years of such a dangerous box in the house

 

[SUNRAY]

Well i am unsure what to do now

I have had 3 electricians in the house now. The first guy was qualified but wasnt registered and i was going to proceed and get work separately checked. However it turned out he wanted to do everything from start to finish purely in cash, and i am not comfortable with something as big as a new CU purely paid for in cash with no transaction record - i want some sort of invoice/transfer record...or is that being paranoid?

The second guy checked the ancient cable for me, top bloke and i would have hired in a flash, he also thought we would get away without a rewire - but is booked up for months for rewires and CU

The third took one look at our box, pronounced it 'an old wylex and thus dangerous' and said 'we will see what the condition report says but i am expecting a full rewire to be required.

Are the wirelex really that dangerous? I have a spare set of fuse wire in case of it blowing, and know how to do it and if i really do need a rewire i would prefer to leave the project until i have a bit more saved cash, maybe 6 months from now (in the last 12 months i have had new roofline, new boiler, new bathroom and i am short of cash).

But he made it sound as if the wylex boxes are death traps... which i dont understand as every device is seperately fused...dont get me wrong he is the expert but i dont get why he was so different view to the other 2 electricians. I also dont understand how i am still alive after 20 years of such a dangerous box in the house

I have 2 Wylex fuse boxes in service in my home. Shed and granny annex (used as workshop/store) admittedly probably now with 50% of MCB's rather than fuses. They are not inherantly dangerous but they are 30 to 60 years old.
Bear in mind the bakelite material does get brittle with age and I will isolate with the main switch/RCD before pulling a fuse as they have on rare ocassions been known to crack.
And this one has been in use for 40 years with a test every 5 years. Each year the same 'faults: no lables and big gaps round the MCB's

I wouldn't suggest filling your existing fusebox with MCB's as the cost is likely to be very much in the same ball park as a whole modern CU.

 

[trwils]

I have 2 Wylex fuse boxes in service in my home. Shed and granny annex (used as workshop/store) admittedly probably now with 50% of MCB's rather than fuses. They are not inherantly dangerous but they are 30 to 60 years old.
Bear in mind the bakelite material does get brittle with age and I will isolate with the main switch/RCD before pulling a fuse as they have on rare ocassions been known to crack.
And this one has been in use for 40 years with a test every 5 years. Each year the same 'faults: no lables and big gaps round the MCB's

View attachment 276626
I wouldn't suggest filling your existing fusebox with MCB's as the cost is likely to be very much in the same ball park as a whole modern CU.

That looks similar to mine except not mcb...and it is interesting as the last electrician said he hadnt seen one in 20 years! (wylex)

I want a CU, and can afford that (the guy who wanted cash and no bank transfers said im looking 400-600 which is fine even if it was double that) but the electrician that does have time to do the job and is registered seems already to have decided i am looking at a rewire.

Its not just the cost, its the destruction to the house that a rewire would cause.

I might put this off 6 months and save some cash so that a rewire if needed will not cause hardship, from what i have read here, i am not taking massive risks having a wylex for another six months- and logic suggests something that has caused me no issues in 20 years (1 fuse replaced, i called out an electrician to do it) is not going to suddenly become deadly.

Thanks for all your patience, it really is appreciated

 

[JohnW2]

Bear in mind the bakelite material does get brittle with age ...

Speaking as someone who (many moons ago) tried to work on it, I would personally say that Bakelite is pretty brittle even when young

Mind you, having said that, the urea-formaldehyde resins used for most electrical accessories these days are not really any better in that respect!

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

Are the wirelex really that dangerous?

They are no more dangerous today than when they were installed 40/50/60 years ago.
Their main problem is that the protection they provide against overloads and short circuits is intended for the cables only. They do very little to protect people.

They were appropriate for the time, decades ago when
- most appliances had an earthed metal casing and an internal fault would cause a short circuit and blow the fuse
- people using portable electrical items outside happened somewhere between rarely and never
- the quantity of electrical items in the home was a tiny fraction of what it is today
- the majority of electrical items in the home were either permanently installed, or so large and heavy that they were rarely moved.

Today most items are class II / double insulated and although that should make them safer, when items do become damaged it's a flimsy plastic case between you and live parts.
Homes have vastly more electrical equipment in them, substantial amounts of it is portable, and plenty is used outside often. Many of them simply didn't exist 40 years ago.
That is why devices like RCDs, AFDDs and surge protection are required.