Updating electrics. NICEIC - complete rewire.

[trwils]

Hi All

I recently got a stake in a fairly old house (built 1979) that needs updating. Ive got several things sorted (roofing, plumbing) and some things ongoing (see thread about gas fire!) and the next job is to sort the electrics.

There is an old wylex style fuse box in the garage, complete with a pack of fuse wire on the cabinet next to it. Obviously it needs replacing (i need an extra socket in the kitchen - and for safety too) but a complete rewire may be a push for me financially, plus from what i read a complete rewire causes chaos.

The plasterer who plastered the downstairs toilet recommended an electrician who came to take a look.

He had a look at the cabling behind some sockets and said its all 'pvc and solid core' and looks more up to date than the box but it is 'old colours'

I explained 5k for a rewire and the chaos that accompanies it would be too much on top of the money i have already spent and would have to wait 6 months or so for me to get the money together (i have spent a lot already).

He suggested they test the electrics to see if any rewiring is needed, he said we would need a 'bonding upgrade' (i cant remember the exact reason, not thick enough maybe?) but he was hopeful we would not need a rewire - and that once the electrics were tested they could see to the upgrade.

All good- except i asked about certification, he said he was fully qualified but not NICEIC registered since he mostly works on site nowadays and it costs to renew. He said all work would be certified, but it was someone else certifying it (not sure if his boss or a 3rd party firm)

He seems really good, approachable etc and honest and was totally open about NICEIC but is this like having someone not on the gas register do gas work? or is it quite normal for signing off electrical work by 3rd parties?

Sorry for the two questions in one day, as mentioned i have a lot of work to do on the house and things such as electrics/gas/plumbing i cant do myself.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

To test the installation he doesn't need to self-certify anything so that bit is fine. Does sound promising that he isn't immediately saying rip out and start again, 1979 isn't old for a house, PVC cable is generally pretty durable.
Adding extra sockets isn't on its own notifiable but you/he will have to add RCD protection to any circuit you put extras on.
Consumer unit replacement is notifiable (to Building Control), that's where your man comes slightly unstuck. A 3rd party shouldn't really be certifying the job unless they've been directly supervising it BUT a CU swap is pretty easy to inspect after installation (unlike hidden cable runs), from your point of view as long as the test results are satisfactory and you get a working installation, a nice certificate from your electrician and a letter from Building Control then you'll be good to go.

 

[trwils]

To test the installation he doesn't need to self-certify anything so that bit is fine. Does sound promising that he isn't immediately saying rip out and start again, 1979 isn't old for a house, PVC cable is generally pretty durable.
Adding extra sockets isn't on its own notifiable but you/he will have to add RCD protection to any circuit you put extras on.
Consumer unit replacement is notifiable (to Building Control), that's where your man comes slightly unstuck. A 3rd party shouldn't really be certifying the job unless they've been directly supervising it BUT a CU swap is pretty easy to inspect after installation (unlike hidden cable runs), from your point of view as long as the test results are satisfactory and you get a working installation, a nice certificate from your electrician and a letter from Building Control then you'll be good to go.

Thanks, i mostly care about the installation being safe, and not spending more than i need to and everything being legal.
He did some minor work for me for a drink as he it turned out he is a friend of a (distant) family member (he terminated some outdoor wiring for me and rewired the light in one room which got damaged during plastering work) so seems a top bloke.

I just got burned by a couple of builders (wont bore with details) so i am cautious about everything right now.

I will proceed i think, and confirm that building control will be notified - thanks i appreciate the clarifications.

 

[EFLImpudence]

If you are using an unregistered electrician, it is your responsibility to notify the work before it is started.

 

[trwils]

If you are using an unregistered electrician, it is your responsibility to notify the work before it is started.

That i did not know- i certainly do not want to break any laws. Thanks.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

If you are using an unregistered electrician, it is your responsibility to notify the work before it is started.

Good point. If your chap is going to do the job, take some pics of whatever qualifications he has and attach them to the Building Notice. You may find that Building Control will want a chunky fee from you, depends what level of proven competence your chap has

 

[trwils]

Good point. If your chap is going to do the job, take some pics of whatever qualifications he has and attach them to the Building Notice. You may find that Building Control will want a chunky fee from you, depends what level of proven competence your chap has

Ok so using this guy will likely cost me extra on top of his own fee due to notification fees?
It might work out cheaper to use someone who can self certify providing i can find a tradesman who doesnt insist on a full rewire?

 

[SUNRAY]

First off, My house is all old colours and well over 50% is original from 1965, I have a 1983 rental property all old colours apart from the replacement shower cable so your age is fine.

3rd party sign off... I'm not electrically certified, I did 16th some 10 years back just to give me some credence on site, however I have done many hours of work and testing which has been inspected and signed off by me and my boss (as a self elployed person I have subbed to a number of bosses 2005 to current). They are convinced I have the compedence and trust me to work alone and depending on the job maybe even don't come on site to check. He certainly treats me/my work differently to other members of staff.
I fully understand the documents quoting design, install & check. It's no different to letting a colleague/apprentice do part of the job but only one signature.
On top of that one of my bosses is a stickler for detail and sits on IET committees, I imagine he would not deviate from the spirit of the requirements.

 

[trwils]

First off, My house is all old colours and well over 50% is original from 1965, I have a 1983 rental property all old colours apart from the replacement shower cable so your age is fine.

3rd party sign off... I'm not electrically certified, I did 16th some 10 years back just to give me some credence on site, however I have done many hours of work and testing which has been inspected and signed off by me and my boss (as a self elployed person I have subbed to a number of bosses 2005 to current). They are convinced I have the compedence and trust me to work alone and depending on the job maybe even don't come on site to check.
I fully understand the documents quoting design, install & check. It's no different to letting a colleague/apprentice do part of the job but only one signature.
On top of that one of my bosses is a stickler for detail and sits on IET committees, I imagine he would not deviate from the spirit of the requirements.

Thanks sunray i trust this guy to do the job properly, i just dont want to break any rules at all and it is all a bit confusing.
Its very reassuring to hear the wiring age should not be an issue.

 

[ericmark]

1966 was the big change in wiring. So 1979 not likely to be any big problem, you may have bonding and earthing to sort out, use of plastic service pipes, and a move to providing TN-C-S earthing has resulted in some homes needing up grading, and the use of plastic in the bathroom has resulted in many homes now needing RCD protection. And use of electronic components direct on the mains supply means type A RCD and SPD, but this is all cured by changing the CU.

The installation certificate can be completed by any electrician, however the completion or compliance certificate has to issued by LABC or scheme provider, as to if its lack is any real problem, only really if selling up.

 

[trwils]

1966 was the big change in wiring. So 1979 not likely to be any big problem, you may have bonding and earthing to sort out, use of plastic service pipes, and a move to providing TN-C-S earthing has resulted in some homes needing up grading, and the use of plastic in the bathroom has resulted in many homes now needing RCD protection. And use of electronic components direct on the mains supply means type A RCD and SPD, but this is all cured by changing the CU.

The installation certificate can be completed by any electrician, however the completion or compliance certificate has to issued by LABC or scheme provider, as to if its lack is any real problem, only really if selling up.

Yes he said i would most likely need a bonding upgrade, he pointed out some of my bonding (a green/yellow cable connected to the gas and water etc) but i cant remember why it needs upgrading

As for certification he said that upon completion of work i would get a full electrical cert, but thanks to you guys i now know that may be different to building regs.

I just want the job doing really and the vibe i am getting from all of this is lack of registration doesnt mean lack of competence, i will speak to him more about it and ask for clarification on compliance / building notification

I dont want it to come across that i am questioning his competence however as he has been really good and as i said did a couple of small jobs for nothing as a favour to 'a mate of a mate of a distant relative.'

 

[flameport]

As for certification he said that upon completion of work i would get a full electrical cert,

That's good - and exactly what you should get. That applies regardless of whether the work is notifiable or not, or whether the person is registered with a scheme or not.

Replacement consumer unit is notifiable work, and there are only two viable options for notification.
Either notify building control before it's started OR use someone who is a member of a competent persons scheme to do the work and notify.

or is it quite normal for signing off electrical work by 3rd parties?

No, it's exceptionally uncommon. NAPIT have a scheme where some of their members can notify third party work, and it operates similar to building control - you contact someone registered for TP notifications before any work is done, pay whatever fees they want and they will visit / inspect as necessary during and after the work, and notify at the end provided they are satisfied that it's been done properly. Costs are not likely to be much different from building control.

NICEIC do not operate a TP scheme and never have.

The vast majority of people registered with NICEIC or NAPIT are only allowed to notify their own work, not that done by anyone else.

the vibe i am getting from all of this is lack of registration doesnt mean lack of competence,

Pretty much. CP schemes are a tax on people who do things properly and need to notify work.
Plenty of people who do things properly are not members of the schemes, as they only apply to a small number of very specific domestic installations. Most domestic work is not notifiable, and the CP schemes do not apply to commercial or industrial work at all.
The minority who sling in any old dangerous mess don't care about notification or anything else, and are entirely unaffected by the requirement to notify.

 

[JohnW2]

.... the use of plastic in the bathroom has resulted in many homes now needing RCD protection.

Could you explain that, please? Thanks.

Of course, for a good few years, any circuit serving a bathroom (or even merely 'passing through' a bathroom) has been required to be RCD protected - regardless of whether or not there is any "plastic in the bathroom".

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

My point was use of plastic pipes or coupling

Where the location containing a bath or shower is in a building with a protective equipotential bonding system in accordance with Regulation 411.3.1.2, supplementary equipotential bonding may be omitted where all of the following conditions are met:
(ii) All final circuits of the location have additional protection by means of an RCD in accordance with Regulation 701.411.3.3

So plumbing work can result in a RCD being required even when nothing electrical has changed, and the regulations not being retrospective does not help.

Any "New" installation will require RCD protection, but what I was talking about was an installation which was complying with regulations in 1979, and why it needs work doing to it today.

An electrician does not need to notify, it is the owner who must ensure any work requiring notifying is notified either by using the LABC route or using an electrician who is a scheme member, a scheme member electrician must notify work which requires notifying. As a result the use of paperwork, adverts, including any sign writing on vehicles which indicates the electrician is a scheme member is illegal if he is not a scheme member. But if he does not have anything which shows NICEIC or NAPIT then the electrician is not breaking any law, however he must issue an installation certificate or minor works as that will be needed to be submitted to the LABC by the owner, not to issue one shows the electrician is fully aware he is doing the work illegally.

It has always eluded me why the LABC does not operate a permit to work system, had they done this, then the electrician could not claim he didn't know the owner had not registered the work, but is seems the registration is really a tax, and nothing more, when I used the LABC route with parents house, the LABC inspector did not even pop his head through the door before issuing the completion certificate, I took the installation certificate to the shire hall and the completion certificate arrived in the post. And when I could not find it on coming to sell the house, told it would take 4 months to get a replacement and would need to pay council for workers time to find it. I would have thought it would have been part of the solicitors search, and they would want copies from the LABC as any copies I have could have been doctored, but clearly not. Had it been any more than a tax, then one would have been able to get copies in the same ways as birth certificates etc.

But the permit to work was verbal only, the LABC inspector looked at out test equipment before we started, and inquired about our qualifications, and once satisfied, he simply said go ahead and submit the installation certificate when finished, no paperwork was issued to say I could work, so had I been using another electrician he would have simply had to have taken my word.

As to what needs notifying varies thought out the UK principalities and nations, the English tend to forget the rules in Wales are not the same, as to third party work, not permitted in Wales, only England, but the registered electrician must be in control, he does not need to do the work himself, or we could have no apprenticeships, he can work with electricians mates, and other workers in his control. So he could have the builder dig and fill a trench for example. Not sure about sole traders they may have different rules, but a company can have many people working on one job, so we have a grey area, some one may work though an agency for a firm, and be covered by the firms scheme membership, but have no record of him actually working for the firm. My son worked as an inspector for one firm, I know he needed to show the firm his C&G 2391, but when he started he had to take over work in progress, and when he left he left other work in progress, and he had no direct contact with the scheme provider, it was the firm who was registered not him personally, not like an MOT inspector where it is the person who is registered. So rather unclear who can do what with larger firms.

Originally there were around 15 scheme providers, who could not pass info between them as to any electricians they had kicked off the scheme, there has to be more than one, as other wise it would be a closed shop, which was made illegal, aimed at Unions, but the schemes are basic the same thing as the Unions, so Unions were stopped from policing who was considered as qualified, and the scheme providers took over instead. If either NICEIC or NAPIT stop doing the work, then it become illegal, so all would need to use LABC.

 

[securespark]

Christ...now I know I'm ancient.

A really old house built when I was 13....