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JohnW2 · 7 Oct 2021

Harry Bloomfield said:
The industry has always been partitioned into generation, distribution and local electricity boards. CEGB and local electricity boards to whom you would pay your bills. The industry was so massive, it had to be departmentalised. The difference now, is simply that the local boards have been replaced by independent companies, which can bid for your business and you are free to choose any of them.

I don't see that 'massive' is necessarily a reason for 'departmentalisation' in the sense we are talking about. The tax/NI systems, DVLA, TV licence (and even Covid-19 vaccination!) systems seem to have successfully avoided that 'need'. Indeed, the considerable advances in IT systems mean that it is now not really any more difficult to have billing all undertaken by a single 'system' than having it split in umpteen ones (although that would probably have been much more difficult a few decades ago).

Don't forget that, as I just wrote, the only 'service' the 'suppliers' provide is billing (and installation of meters to facilitate that).

A fixed charge for administration of billing (by whoever) would be fair enough, but to have a 'percentage mark-up' of the cost of all energy used added on by a company that provides no service other than billing is, in my opinion, not reasonable. It costs little, if anything, more to issue a bill for 10,000 kWh of electricity than a bill for 10 kWh.

Harry Bloomfield said:
As a result, costs have come down for the consumer. I doubt any of them are making big profits, as we have seen recently, many have been caught out and gone bust.

There is no such thing as a free dinner. "Cost have come down" primarily for those consumers have gambled that supplier's gambles for fixed-price contracts as regards future energy prices prove to be successful. If one loses that gamble, then the company may go bust - and I'm not sure how reasonable it should be that consumers in general should have to pick up the cost of that - in general, if one gambles and loses, that is one's own problem. With variable-price contracts, it's obviously the government's 'cap' which is causing most of the problem (for suppliers), but that is currently acting in a manner that was never intended/envisaged.

Kind Regards, John

SUNRAY · 7 Oct 2021

EDIT: I started writing this before post #60 and been doing other things in the meantime.

JohnW2 said:
Indeed - as you imply, that is "Capitalism 101" and applies to most 'tangible products', and even to many services.

However, commodities like electricity and piped gas are different. The infrastructure for getting 'the product' all the way from the 'source' (c.f. 'manufacturer') to the meter of each and every consumer already exists, in the form of cables/transformers (or pipes), and the 'supplier has, and can have, nothing to do with that.

Unlike the situation with the 'tangible products', with electricity and piped gas there really seems to be no point in having 'middle men' between the 'manufacturer' and the end-customer, each of whom takes a 'rake off' and thereby increasing the cost to the consumer. With the 'tangible products', the 'middle men' can advertise the products, provide distribution systems and warehousing & local 'convenient' retail outlets, online purchasing/delivery facilities etc., provide 'Customer Services' in relation to the product etc. - the nature any quality of which services may be relevant to consumers. However, none of those 'services' are applicable in the case of electricity or piped gas.

As I see it, the only real scope for differences between 'suppliers', hence the only real basis on which they can advertise, 'sell themselves' and thereby attempt to attract customers, is in relation to the extent to which they add on a 'surcharge' to what the 'manufacturer' charges for the electricity/gas.

What 'services' do you think that a 'supplier' provides beyond the issuing and administration of bills (and installation of meters to facilitate that)? In virtually any other buying/selling context, I think we would probably take a dim view of a situation in which a substantial percentage (not merely a 'fixed admin charge') was added onto the bill "for issuing a bill", wouldn't we?

Kind Regards, John

We always purchased our leccy from SEEBoard, they were the local 'company' and responsible for the local network from the sub, C/O, meter and tails between - but not to CU (although they usually did replace if needed), reading meter, collecting the money from prepay meters, issueing bills and ran showrooms where you could; pay the bill, make any arrangements like change of address etc and buy electrical goods. SEEBoard only covered the southeast, which covered kent, surrey, Sussex and I think possibly Middlesex & Hampshire.

I'll guess there were around 20 electricity boards all giving roughly the same service, they in turn had all absorbed loads of local companies, mostly local corperations. So 'service providers' is nothing new, in fact quite the opposite but I'm sure the inter-company arrangements are different to the days of the old boards but we never purchased our power from CEGB (Now approximating to UKPN).

As an aside I remember seeing bills including some sort of deviation for customers migrated over from CHatham Electric Light Company and watching in awe in the late 70's, from work, as their long forgotten main switching unit was discovered during demolition works.

SUNRAY · 7 Oct 2021

Harry Bloomfield said:
The industry has always been partitioned into generation, distribution and local electricity boards. CEGB and local electricity boards to whom you would pay your bills. The industry was so massive, it had to be departmentalised. The difference now, is simply that the local boards have been replaced by independent companies, which can bid for your business and you are free to choose any of them. As a result, costs have come down for the consumer. I doubt any of them are making big profits, as we have seen recently, many have been caught out and gone bust.

The local boards were I believed formed when the previous generating serviced were nationalised or something akin to to it. I believe they were then privatised as discovered in another thread a few months back when someone tried to tell me SEEBoard didn't exist before a certain date (Which they did).

Harry Bloomfield · 7 Oct 2021

SUNRAY said:
I'll guess there were around 20 electricity boards all giving roughly the same service, they in turn had all absorbed loads of local companies, mostly local corperations.

That's right - it began with local private companies building generating stations, to serve local areas, then local corporations (councils) took them over, ending up with local electricity boards. The National Grid, began to appear in the late 1920.

SUNRAY · 7 Oct 2021

SUNRAY said:
The local boards were I believed formed when the previous generating serviced were nationalised or something akin to to it. I believe they were then privatised as discovered in another thread a few months back when someone tried to tell me SEEBoard didn't exist before a certain date (Which they did).

https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/installing-a-new-consumer-unit.575614/#post-5024463 ...post #65: SEEBoard was formed in 1989. Seems the 'privatation' was later than I thought.

blup · 8 Oct 2021

An interesting video around the regs regarding round pin sockets:

Blup

SUNRAY · 8 Oct 2021

blup said:
An interesting video around the regs regarding round pin sockets:

Blup

Does anyone have any doubts?

SUNRAY · 8 Oct 2021

Getting back to OP what has been installed is wrong and requires the attention of an electrician better qualified than your last.

However in early 70's I did some part time work in the local councils entertainment venues. The stage lights in one venue had been changed from 8x 500W units to 8x 1KW (before I started), controlled by a Strand junior8 dimmer. After several months I happened to be 'poking around the back' for something and found a 15A socket/plug in the feed to the dimmer. In a show it was totally normal to have 8KW running for 2 hours or so and there was no sign of overheating or any other problem despite running at 220% of its rating.

Needless to say I raised the issue and it was corrected quickly

JohnD · 8 Oct 2021

SUNRAY said:
https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/installing-a-new-consumer-unit.575614/#post-5024463 ...post #65: SEEBoard was formed in 1989. Seems the 'privatation' was later than I thought.

I was on contract to SEEBoard in 1998, we all thought it was funny that a privatised company still called itself a "Board"

SUNRAY · 8 Oct 2021

JohnD said:
I was on contract to SEEBoard in 1998, we all thought it was funny that a privatised company still called itself a "Board"

I think they all kept the name initially and I think some still do.

JohnD · 8 Oct 2021

I've worked at several, and I think SEEBoard was the only one.

You still get (older) taxi drivers and other people making deliveries who say "I'll be round to the Board in ten minutes"

JohnW2 · 8 Oct 2021

JohnD said:
I was on contract to SEEBoard in 1998, we all thought it was funny that a privatised company still called itself a "Board"

What did "Board" actually mean (or imply), anyway?

The 'board' (small "b"

) to which my DNO fuses (I can hardly call it 'a cutout'!) and meters are attached still bears a (metal) 'label' indicating that it is the property of the East Midlands Electricity Board (large "B"!), with a fine of £5 for tampering with it ...

Kind Regards, John

Harry Bloomfield · 8 Oct 2021

JohnD said:
You still get (older) taxi drivers and other people making deliveries who say "I'll be round to the Board in ten minutes"

Names tend to stick, long after - Just a little way from here, there a bend in a truck road which is know locally as Charlie Sweeps Corner. 70+ years ago there used to be a cottage there where a sweep lived, by the name of Charlie. He would have a sweeps brush poking up above the cottage roof.

Another local place is called Mary Pannal, another trunk road, very dark and lonely on a night which has a reputation for being haunted by Mary who causes drivers to go off the road. Mary was supposed to have been burned as a witch in the distant past.

Mention either place name to a genuine local and they will know exactly where you mean.

JohnD · 8 Oct 2021

JohnW2 said:
What did "Board" actually mean (or imply), anyway?

I believe it was during WW2 when national emergency demanded co-ordinated supply and investment, that various "Boards" were set up and funded. Essential industries that were vital to the nation were put under public control and funding. In some cases, near-bankrupt railways and coal mines were put into public ownership, hence we had a National Coal Board that later owned the mines, and British Rail the railways. This experience of public ownership for the national benefit eased the path of, for example, the Labour Government introduction of a National Health Service, in the face of bitter Conservative opposition. The citizens and voters of the country had seen that public ownershop did not lead to the breakdown of civilisation and a Bolshevik revolution.

We have now learned that privatisation and fragmentation of, for example, the nation's railways, is a f'ing stupid idea, which ought to be reversed.

There used to be a Milk Marketing Board, a Gas Board, local Electricity Boards, I have an idea there was once a potato board.

"Board" meaning "table" like a Board of Directors

cf "A bench of Magistrates"

The chief sat at the head of the table, so was the "Chairman of the Board"

JohnW2 · 8 Oct 2021

JohnD said:
I believe it was during WW2 when national emergency demanded co-ordinated supply and investment, that various "Boards" were set up and funded. ... hence we had a National Coal Board ... There used to be a Milk Marketing Board, a Gas Board, local Electricity Boards, I have an idea there was once a potato board.

Yes, I understand all that, but it was the derivation of the meaning of the word 'Board' in that context that I was wondering about. However, you might well be right when you suggest ..

JohnD said:
"Board" meaning "table" like a Board of Directors ... cf "A bench of Magistrates"

Way down the list of meanings, the Oxford dictionary gives ..

A group of people constituted as the decision-making body of an organization.

.... so, as you imply, it seems that in the contexts we are talking about, "Board" probably does not actually refer to the 'organisation' itself but, rather, to the group of people running it?

Kind Regards, John

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