Sorry, but this is important.

It is not a complex medical issue.
You again present your opinion, in contradiction to scientific fact, as though your opinion outweighs scientific evidence.

Yes, intersex is widely considered a highly complex issue because it intersects biological, medical, ethical, legal, and social spheres.

The multi-faceted complexity surrounding intersex has allowed prejudiced people to spout their bigoted opinions about transexuals.
None of which is based on scientific fact, but religious ideology., which they deny, despite being unable to provide any scientific evidence to support their beliefs..
 
Last edited:
I care not if someone completely transforms themselves, Personally I wouldnt marry or go out with someone who had but I have no problems with anyone that does. The ones I have a problem with are the ones who identify as women and they are not.
You've already stated that menopausal women and those who have had a hysterectomy are no longer women. Do you now argue that they should not be treated as women, in society, not be held in women's prisons, not allowed to access women only spaces, not allwed to compete in women only sports?
 
Curiously JohnD and others keep running from that request. They prefer meaningless comments such as "A man is not a woman."

The problem is that that attitude does nothing to help with fairly and without prejudice dealing with transgender people.


You've already stated that menopausal women and those who have had a hysterectomy are no longer women. Do you now argue that they should not be treated as women, in society, not be held in women's prisons, not allowed to access women only spaces, not allwed to compete in women only sports?

And HWM's position illustrates the problem.

If people cannot say what criteria they are relying on to make a determination of what makes someone a woman (externally applied gender identity? Self image gender identity? Biological characteristics?) how can we as a society come up with a way to decide what "women" are allowed to do?
 
I suppose we could use an analogy, to answer the question about who should be allowed, or shouldn't be allowed to use a women only facility.
Let's call a space or service as an active-adult only space or service, where non-active adults are not allowed.
The obvious problem is how to set the criteria for who is, and who is not, an active adult.

Some might argue it's only for employed people. others would include self-employed, others would argue that p/t work qualifies, others that home-maker is a recognised activity, others would argue that paid work should not be the only criteria, etc.

So until someone can define precisely what characteristics are needed to be a woman, that absence of criteria, and the argument that only women are allowed in women only spaces, becomes untenable.
 
It's not just a problem of criteria like that.

Allowing a trans woman who was a regular harmless bloke into the women's changing room in a gym is a very different proposition from allowing one who has a history of violence into a women's prison, but every other "gender" criterion could be the same.

We absolutely need to guard against ulterior-motive people, of course we do, but the reality is that most people want to change gender because of who they are and how they feel, not because they are perverts or sex offenders. It's not about them doing it in order to get into women's toilets, it's about the fact that because they've done it they need to use the women's not the men's.
 
You've already stated that menopausal women and those who have had a hysterectomy are no longer women. Do you now argue that they should not be treated as women, in society, not be held in women's prisons, not allowed to access women only spaces, not allwed to compete in women only sports?
Twisting my words, there are two sexes only, it's all very simple. those who make a full transition from one to another by the means of surgery, no half measures though. They may use each others changing and toilet facilities, those who just think that they are the opposit sex may not.
 
Twisting my words,
No twisting of words were required. Here's your exact words:
Yes if you are struggling with that definition I will point out the obvious to you. Do they menstrate can they give birth, if the answer is yes to either of those questions then they are a female.
Therefore, according to you, menopausal women, or those who have had a hysterectomy are no longer women.

here are two sexes only,
Legally, yes. Whoever attends the birth has to decide which one to chose. But sometimes that doesn't reflect reality, and the person in attendance has to make the best guess. Parents have no choice in that decision. Sometimes surgery is needed, as well as intrusive testing to determine the sex of the baby.

it's all very simple.
Neither the issue, the surgery, the biological problems, the social issues, the medical and legal processes are simple.
Yes, the issues surrounding intersex are deeply complex, encompassing intersecting medical, ethical, legal, and social challenges.
: A major issue is the practice of "normalizing" surgeries on infants and children to align their genitalia with conventional male or female appearances. These procedures are often irreversible, performed without the patient's consent, and can result in infertility, chronic pain, and loss of sensation.
:Intersex variations are often treated by the medical community as disorders that need to be fixed rather than natural bodily variations. This approach often prioritizes cosmetic outcomes over long-term physical and psychological well-being.

those who make a full transition from one to another by the means of surgery, no half measures though.
Not all those who wish to change gender want to risk medical procedures.

They may use each others changing and toilet facilities,
Not according to current legislation., which shows that you do understand the issue.

those who just think that they are the opposit sex may not.
That is the crux of the matter. What are the characteristics that determine what a woman has to have, to say they are a woman.
If you can't specify those characteristics, how can you or anyone decide who can and who can't use women only facilities?


For many years there have been few problems. Only one or two high profile cases have caused the itervention of the courts.
 
Well let's see if we can unpick this. Hopefully without people trying to get me shut down because they fear reason prevailing.



Re the first part, who has/is arguing that? Who has said that a trans woman is a biological one?

Can you provide any examples?

As for the second part, that's the problem to be grappled with. Who, and to what extent, and in what circumstances, should a trans woman be treated as if they were a biological one?

It's far from a straightforward issue, but that doesn't mean that it should be dismissed as rubbish by people who cannot, or do not want to, deal with things which are not straightforward.

It's also multifaceted - for example it could easily be that a trans woman who is not a sex offender, or violent misogynist, could be allowed to use female toilets and yet not be allowed to compete in female boxing matches. But how do we ever build a framework for all the determinations to be made if the debate is hijacked by ignorant prejudice and ridicule?




Not sure what that means - "offering ... female only health and biological conditions ...". I'm not saying that to TTP, but because I'm going to make an assumption about what you meant, and I apologise if I got it wrong.

So I'm going to assume you meant offering "female only" health services to non biological women?

If so, do you have any examples? I can't see how, even with the most determined will in the world, a medical professional could perform a smear test on a trans woman. Breast cancer screening I guess is another one, but

a) men can and do get, and die from, breast cancer

b) do you know for sure that trans women who've undergone hormone treatment to promote breast growth haven't increased their risk of the disease?

As I said, apologies if I misunderstood, but apart from breast screening and gynecology I cant think of any medical services which are sex based and wouldn't work for trans women. Likewise prostate cancer screening in trans men - there'd be bggr all point in that.




Are you aware that trans women can breast feed?

If you don't want to call a trans woman a "woman", what do you want to call a trans woman who lactates if not a person who breast feeds?




Addressed at the start.




But to what extent is it a real issue, and not one which has been grossly exaggerated by the ignorant, the prejudiced, and the frothing swivel-eyed right wing media?

Importantly to what extent is it an issue which could not be properly, or more easily, dealt with in an environment not distorted by the shoutings of the ignorant, the prejudiced, and the frothing swivel-eyed right wing media?




Even if they could see what's between his legs?




And if one isn't available, like say your average gym or swimming pool?
If a trans woman/biological man with a beard wants to walk down the high street in a dress that’s one thing. But they shouldn’t be in changing spaces and toilets with female adults and children. Especially not on the basis that they are for all purposes a woman. That is a legal fiction promoted by politicians on the make (Kieth included) who saw it as a no cost sop to the left. Imagine the financial consequences of a law that said disabled people are to be treated for all purposes as if they were able bodied.
 
Back
Top