Sorry, but this is important.

[King Billy]

It is not a complex medical issue.

You again present your opinion, in contradiction to scientific fact, as though your opinion outweighs scientific evidence.

Yes, intersex is widely considered a highly complex issue because it intersects biological, medical, ethical, legal, and social spheres.

The multi-faceted complexity surrounding intersex has allowed prejudiced people to spout their bigoted opinions about transexuals.
None of which is based on scientific fact, but religious ideology., which they deny, despite being unable to provide any scientific evidence to support their beliefs..

 

[King Billy]

Or do you have some biological definition you want to use?

Curiously JohnD and others keep running from that request. They prefer meaningless comments such as "A man is not a woman."

 

[King Billy]

I care not if someone completely transforms themselves, Personally I wouldnt marry or go out with someone who had but I have no problems with anyone that does. The ones I have a problem with are the ones who identify as women and they are not.

You've already stated that menopausal women and those who have had a hysterectomy are no longer women. Do you now argue that they should not be treated as women, in society, not be held in women's prisons, not allowed to access women only spaces, not allwed to compete in women only sports?

 

[morqthana]

Curiously JohnD and others keep running from that request. They prefer meaningless comments such as "A man is not a woman."

The problem is that that attitude does nothing to help with fairly and without prejudice dealing with transgender people.

You've already stated that menopausal women and those who have had a hysterectomy are no longer women. Do you now argue that they should not be treated as women, in society, not be held in women's prisons, not allowed to access women only spaces, not allwed to compete in women only sports?

And HWM's position illustrates the problem.

If people cannot say what criteria they are relying on to make a determination of what makes someone a woman (externally applied gender identity? Self image gender identity? Biological characteristics?) how can we as a society come up with a way to decide what "women" are allowed to do?

 

[morqthana]

It is not a complex medical issue.

To what extent it is a medical issue may be debatable, but it is complex.

Gender identity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gender dysphoria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[King Billy]

I suppose we could use an analogy, to answer the question about who should be allowed, or shouldn't be allowed to use a women only facility.
Let's call a space or service as an active-adult only space or service, where non-active adults are not allowed.
The obvious problem is how to set the criteria for who is, and who is not, an active adult.

Some might argue it's only for employed people. others would include self-employed, others would argue that p/t work qualifies, others that home-maker is a recognised activity, others would argue that paid work should not be the only criteria, etc.

So until someone can define precisely what characteristics are needed to be a woman, that absence of criteria, and the argument that only women are allowed in women only spaces, becomes untenable.

 

[Elsa TLC]

OMG

He wasn't very nice.
If you keep on joking the way thst you do, future generations will never be able to call their sons Pete.

 

[morqthana]

It's not just a problem of criteria like that.

Allowing a trans woman who was a regular harmless bloke into the women's changing room in a gym is a very different proposition from allowing one who has a history of violence into a women's prison, but every other "gender" criterion could be the same.

We absolutely need to guard against ulterior-motive people, of course we do, but the reality is that most people want to change gender because of who they are and how they feel, not because they are perverts or sex offenders. It's not about them doing it in order to get into women's toilets, it's about the fact that because they've done it they need to use the women's not the men's.