Age of these electrics?

[telecamo]

Hi,

We recently moved into a 1965 house, the fuse box looks not too old and I will get the electrics properly checked at some point, but just after some general advice...

Some of the wiring seems perfectly modern, I've had to rewire a couple of sockets, that all had the standard individually insulated 3 wires.

I then went to change a single socket into a double converter faceplate, and found it had what looked like really old wiring in it, at least the Earth wire had no insulation at all. These were really big wires as well (3 for live and 3 for neutral?) I couldn't really fit them in the new faceplate I purchased.

See pictures:

ibb.co/cJzRsSh
and
ibb.co/ZhQ0Lxk

Anyone know how old or how much of a problem this type of wiring is? Should I be concerned about needing to rewire in the near future or any issues with insurance? I've not noticed any problems with lighting or electric loads etc.

Thanks!

 

[AndyPRK]

Yeah it does look old.
Maybe imperial cable.

It could still be ok. But difficult to get it modern sockets.

If you have metal lights or switches, there may not be an earth


EDIT: Arh yes that does look like 1965 wiring!

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

That wiring, the red and black looks like 7.029 cable, so likely the same age as the house. The brown and blue is much later and probably a spur to provide extra sockets. Likely none of the lighting circuits will be provided with an earth, which is a more serious concern, especially if metal lighting fittings are to be installed. A fusebox age is not a good indicator of the age of the installation, they are often replaced without the place being rewired.

Accessories, switches and sockets are also sometimes replaced to give a more modern look, so you have done the right thing by removing the socket to see what is hidden behind.

 

[telecamo]

Thanks, if it is the case that some percentage of the house has 1960s wiring, which sounds like the case - how do you judge when it should be rewired? Is there any immediacy to it? Im obviously not keen to spend £5k on such a job - but if it comes down to things like fire risk etc, it's probably not wise to delay?

On the other hand it's clearly been functional with no issues for 40 years!

 

[JohnW2]

... it had what looked like really old wiring in it, at least the Earth wire had no insulation at all.

Just for the record .... a 'bare' earth wire ('no insulation at all') is totally normal for the usual house-wiring cables ('twin and earth'), even today. Modern twin and earth cable looks like this ....

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

Some installations had the earth wiring routed separately from the power cable. The Earth conductor could be bare copper (?) wire buried in the plaster.

Possibly a result of an Earthing system being added maybe years after the Live and Neutral were installed and using the easiest route to get the Earth wire to the sockets.

 

[securespark]

If you are concerned, I would get an EICR carried out.
That will, amongst other things, check the continuity of earthing in circuits (or confirm the absence of it). You will get a clear picture of what meets current regulation, what doesn't, what is unsafe and what you need to do (and pay) to make it safe.

 

[mattylad]

Only if the EICR is done correctly and not by one of these "Ill do it quick, be in & out in a couple of hours and its £50" types.

 

[ericmark]

There are some dates when there were changes.
The 13A socket invented during the war together with ring final system so no pre-war wiring will have a ring final.
1966 rules changed needing an earth on lights, but sockets I think had earth connection pre-1st world war.
Also went to plastic instead of rubber insulated cable.
Flex went brown and blue quite early can't remember date around the 70's
Went metric again around the 70's that also resulted in single core for some sizes instead of stranded.
At some point also went from Green to Green/Yellow for earth wire sleeves.
Fixed wiring went brown blue around 90's
I think around 90's the type tested distribution unit replaced the fuse box, called a consumer unit.
RCD protection for special sockets 2004 this changed consumer unit design.
Started using RBCO's (MCB + RCD combined) in consumer units, they had to be made taller to fit them.
RCD protection most sockets 2008 this changed consumer unit design.
Now RCD protection all sockets.
Now metal consumer unit again this changed consumer unit design.
MK sockets tend to have larger holes than the minimum British Standard.

So nitty gritty, if you don't want to add anything to the electric system then no real problem with plastic insulated cables, which they seem to be, the only problem is when you want to add or alter what you have, anything new has to comply with new rules, so add a socket and the cable to socket and socket needs RCD protection. Change a pre 1966 light or switch, and new items likely need to be marked as Class II and will need stickers fixing to consumer unit.

BS7671 is not law, however to get a compliance certificate the electrician is legally required by the scheme operator to comply with BS7671 as a condition of his membership so for electricians it is near enough law, the LABC can issue a completion certificate instead, so you could for example fit German sockets in the house even though BS7671 does not permit them, but the cost of going through LABC is rather prohibitive.

So it is common for new owners to get an EICR which will highlight any earth leakage problems if they exist or borrowed neutrals, and then fit a modern consumer unit once sure if fitted it will not cause problems, it then makes further changes cheaper to do as don't need RCD sockets etc.

 

[AndyPRK]

someone doing an EICR is bound to say do a re wire though, even if the wiring is perfectly ok.

Most people on here say, if you are going to do a re wire, do it before redecoration!

Have you got a picture of the fusebox?

 

[JohnW2]

Some installations had the earth wiring routed separately from the power cable. The Earth conductor could be bare copper (?) wire buried in the plaster.

I've only seen the 'long-dead' remnants of that - the joists in my house are littered with what is left of stapled-on bare earth conductors (seemingly stranded galvanises steel). However, as eric has said, I think it is a very long time ago that 'power' wiring without a CPC was allowed - certainly pre-WWII and eric may be right in saying that it was pre-WWI.

Possibly a result of an Earthing system being added maybe years after the Live and Neutral were installed and using the easiest route to get the Earth wire to the sockets.

Again unlikely (unless 100+ years ago!), for above reason. 'Power' wiring without a CPC would be extremely old and almost certainly rubber (possibly with a lead sheath!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[AndyPRK]

Fixed wiring went brown blue around 90's

If you are going to put dates in, try and get them correct!

I'm sure this was more like 2004

 

[JohnW2]

There are some dates when there were changes. ... Fixed wiring went brown blue around 90's

Whilst I agree that most of your dates are at least roughly correct, I think the change to brown/blue fixed wiring was in 2004/5 - hence the 'amazing amount of DIY electrical work' that was apparently done in 2004 (using new brown/blue cable), just before the requirement for notification appeared on 1st January 2005

Kind Regards, John

 

[AndyPRK]

I didn't know about that loop hole.

 

[JohnW2]

I didn't know about that loop hole.

On the part of those who 'invoked it', it was really just a lie, rather than a 'loophole'!

I (genuinely!) virtually (or completely - can't remember for certain) my daughter's newly-bought cottage in late 2004, using brown/blue cable. If anyone were to challenge that (suggesting that the work may have been done after 1st Jan 2005), I doubt that I could prove the truth - but I can at least demonstrate that she bought the cottage in January 2004 and that an EICR (well, PIR!) at that time suggested the need for an urgent re-wire - so the re-wire having been done during 2004 is very credible!

Kind Regards, John