Appliance Socket Options

[Rainking79]

Hi, I currently have a double switched socket (radial) serving a dishwasher and washing machine. We're getting a new kitchen fitted with a washer/dryer and dishwasher. Looking for any thoughts on what my options are for the new set-up?

Current train of thought is that i'll need two FCUs above the worktop with outlets below (location TBC) but having never had a dryer before im expecting the draw of both dishwasher and dryer on at the same time to be too much for single line. Two FCUs on the one radial leaves me with the same issue above (?).

Is my only option to use existing supply for one and then 'find' another line (of the ring) to supply the other FCU?

Should add, I have a circa '70s consumer unit....waiting on power company fitting isolator to get CU changed.

Thanks.

 

[AndyPRK]

what size cable is the radial and fuse ?

Connect the dishwasher off the ring. (if it has a hot water supply they don't use alot)

 

[EFLImpudence]

Hi, I currently have a double switched socket (radial)

Do you mean a spur?
If it is a radial, then that is irrelevant.

Current train of thought is that i'll need two FCUs above the worktop with outlets below (location TBC)

No, you do not need any FCUs. There will be fuses in the plugs.
If you want, you can have switches. Use 20A double pole ones.

but having never had a dryer before im expecting the draw of both dishwasher and dryer on at the same time to be too much for single line.

No, it won't. It is generally advised not to have two high powered appliances on a double socket.
It depends on the ratings of the appliances.
Separate single sockets, each on a spur would be better.

Two FCUs on the one radial leaves me with the same issue above (?).

See above.

Is my only option to use existing supply for one and then 'find' another line (of the ring) to supply the other FCU?

Ah - ring - so it is a spur you are talking about.
See above.

Should add, I have a circa '70s consumer unit....waiting on power company fitting isolator to get CU changed.

Irrelevant.

 

[Rainking79]

what size cable is the radial and fuse ?

Connect the dishwasher off the ring. (if it has a hot water supply they don't use alot)

2.5mm with 13amp fuse (at work - sure its 13 and not 16 - double check when I get home)

Yeah, just noticed it takes hot water - dont have a T-off the hot at the moment but might just do that - cheers!

 

[Rainking79]

Do you mean a spur?
If it is a radial, then that is irrelevant.


No, you do not need any FCUs. There will be fuses in the plugs.
If you want, you can have switches. Use 20A double pole ones.


No, it won't. It is generally advised not to have two high powered appliances on a double socket.
It depends on the ratings of the appliances.
Separate single sockets, each on a spur would be better.


See above.


Ah - ring - so it is a spur you are talking about.
See above.


Irrelevant.

Yeah, its a single cable from the CU to the double socket I have at the moment.

Ok, so would be fine to spur from existing supply (above) creating two single sockets controlled by double pole switches?

Apologies if i've picked you up wrong

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yeah, its a single cable from the CU to the double socket I have at the moment.

That's not likely unless it was added after the rest of the kitchen specifically for the socket. Did you mean it has a (13A/)16A MCB at the CU?
Is the cable visible all the way from the CU?

IF you are sure about that then you can do whatever you want.

Supply cable to one switch supply terminals then the other - with a cable from each switch load terminals to a socket for appliances.


However, if a new kitchen is being fitted then you could include these two sockets in the kitchen wiring.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Some pictures or a diagram of these and other sockets might help ???

 

[JohnW2]

Connect the dishwasher off the ring. (if it has a hot water supply they don't use alot)

As far as I am aware, it's a long time since either washing machines or dishwashers had a hot water feed...

... they now use so little water that, with many/most hot water installations (particularly those using stored hot water) the water arriving at the the machine would still be cold (from pipework) by the time that the machine has 'had enough'. The machine would therefore not benefit, but hot water would have been drawn into the pipework which would (at least in summer) represent 'wasted energy'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[AndyPRK]

Yes a lot of washer machines are cold draw only. Mainly I think, because they like to wash at 40°C, so may as well heat the water,

I thought dish washers still could run off either, and preference was for hot.

I think what EFL is saying is it would be safe. However if you were to have a new CU fitted (which you are) with a 16A MCB, you may find it trips when both appliances on.

If appropriate they maybe able to fit a 20A MCB or even a rare 25A

 

[JohnW2]

Yes a lot of washer machines are cold draw only. Mainly I think, because they like to wash at 40°C, so may as well heat the water,

As I said, I don't think that a hot feed would often be of much use, even for a 90° wash. They wash in such small puddles of water these days that, as I said, it's often going to be the case that the 'hot water' would not actually be particularly (if at all) hot by the time the machine was 'full'. In the distant past, when machines used much higher volumes of water, dual (hot & cold) water feeds made much more sense, particularly if the hot water was gas-heated.

I thought dish washers still could run off either, and preference was for hot.

I'm on my third one in the last ~25 years, and none of them have had dual (cold and hot) water inputs - and it would have to be both, since some cycles are as low as 30° or 35° - so if it had a hot feed, it would also need a cool feed to cool it down!

Kind Regards, John

 

[AndyPRK]

Please Please, lets not get into discussions on washing machines and water temp, losses in pipes. Lets try and vaguely stay on topic

Yes dishwashers are single input water. I have a dishwasher from the 1980 that can run off a cold or hot supply. Hot is the preference. On a cold supply the cable is much more flexible after the cycle! It must be having a long and significant draw! But it was made in the 80's when economy was not on the agenda.

I also have a 2012 bosch DW. It says connect to hot water and it runs fine.

 

[Rainking79]

Some pictures or a diagram of these and other sockets might help ???

Hopefully this helps

This is the current layout - excuse the mess - existing socket behind washers at bottom right.

This is the socket - supply cable runs under the floor back to the CU. Previous owners put this in.

I've marked the cable with a couple of purple dots. Runs into a 15amp fuse. I've tidied this up a bit but still a few redundant cables kicking around.

Not sure if it helps but this is the socket beside the kettle - closest source for taking a spur from main. TBH, not sure I can take a spur from there or not....

The washer will go where the draining board is just now and dishwasher to the right of where the sink is (there or there abouts) and breakfast bar gone. Thinking pole switches can go below where the rubble sacks are just now in the top pic which leads me to my next question.....do cables behind cupboards need to be buried in the wall down to floor level? The existing cable just now is free-floating, as per pic, if I flush mount the switch above the worktop can I have the cable exiting the wall just below the worktop to the two sockets without any truncking, etc....? Mainly thinking about the one that'll need to run from the right of the sink the the left of it.

Seeing pics does everything else above still stand or are there any other suggestions?

 

[EFLImpudence]

As that socket is on a radial from a 15A fuse, then you can just continue the supply cable to as many sockets as you want - although, of course, you will be limited to a maximum of 15A for all of them.

As I said, as you are redoing the kitchen then have the main kitchen circuit extended to the sockets for WM and DW.

 

[flameport]

We're getting a new kitchen fitted

Scrap the existing wiring and start again.
Avoids the unknowns, the hours of determining which wires go where, the possibility of previous disasters like connector blocks plastered in the wall, and the fact that you can't connect any new sockets or circuits to that fusebox.

waiting on power company fitting isolator to get CU changed.

That fusebox will need to be replaced, but a separate isolator is not required or desirable.

 

[Rainking79]

As that socket is on a radial from a 15A fuse, then you can just continue the supply cable to as many sockets as you want - although, of course, you will be limited to a maximum of 15A for all of them.

As I said, as you are redoing the kitchen then have the main kitchen circuit extended to the sockets for WM and DW.

Feels like a DW and WM would burst that 15amp if they happen to be running a 'hot' cycle at the same time, which puts me back to the start....

Scrap the existing wiring and start again.
Avoids the unknowns, the hours of determining which wires go where, the possibility of previous disasters like connector blocks plastered in the wall, and the fact that you can't connect any new sockets or circuits to that fusebox.


That fusebox will need to be replaced, but a separate isolator is not required or desirable.

A re-wire wasnt on my list for this but looking around the kitchen it could be doable meaning I could extend the ring to include the two new sockets and put on 30amp fuse....

Plasterer comes next Thursday