Attaching a chandelier to the ceiling with no obvious attachment point

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I've taken down an existing light fitting with a view to replacing it with a nicer chandelier. The light which was removed was mounted to a 15cm long metal bar with protruding ends, and the bar itself was affixed to the ceiling using rawlplugs and a couple of screws.

What's left is what you can see below...

20190215_194735.jpg

I've taken a poke around the inside the ceiling with a coat hanger in order to identify where the joists are but I've had little luck finding them. I've also tried the knocking/tapping method but I'm not entirely sure I've hit a joist.

Putting the problem of locating the joists aside, I think I'll have to feed the existing junction box back into the ceiling anyway - reason being the replacement chandelier has a ceiling rose with a fairly small diameter (approximately the width of the junction box)...

20190215_194805.jpg

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how best to go about doing this?
 
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You are in the wrong forum. You need Electrics UK.

If the nearest joist is some distance away, you will either have to relocate the cables, or, if the fitting is light enough, use a plasterboard fixing or a spring toggle.

Is there a hook plate to hang the light, or are you using just a simple hook? A hook plate will at least give you two fixings.

You can't push that rose into the ceiling void. You may be able to use connector blocks in the 'cup' of the fitting.
 
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Thanks. I did wonder whether this was an electrics or decorating question - seems I guessed wrong. Can this be moved?

What you see in the pictures is what I have, so no hook plate. Can these be bought separately? I presume they need to attach to a joist either way?

Regarding getting the junction box into the ceiling void, do you mean it won't be possible on a practical level or something else? I was considering hacking away at the hole in the ceiling to get it into the void, and then perhaps fitting a 35cm wide decorative plaster ceiling rose to make it good.
 
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Is the new fitting particularly heavy?
What is above the ceiling?
Can you get up there, locate the position of the fixing and add woodwork to bear the weight?
A 1/2" board screwed to 2 battens that are then screwed to the joist either side ought to make a good support for this rather than just screwing into plasterboard.
 
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You must locate at least one joist. Once you have identified its centre line (drill a few 4mm holes through the ceiling) you can pilot-drill it and screw in a screw-eye or screw-hook, which is normal for a chandelier. paint it matt white to blend with the ceiling, and check that your chain, or a shackle, will fit. The joist is very likely adjacent to, or above, the old ceiling rose.

The brass bell of your lamp appears to be designed to prevent you being able to reach the suspension hook or the terminals. Consider binning it. if the lamp is up high and out of eyeline you could retain it as an ornament, but spaced off the ceiling. Or it can be suspended beside the ceiling rose. This is quite common in chandeliers that have a hook and chain. The ceiling has to be quite high for a chandelier or you will bang your head on it. That's why they're more common in ballrooms and over stairwells than in kitchens.

If you haven't found the joist yet, drill a 10mm hole through the ceiling and push a nearly-straight coathanger in both directions. The joists will probably be in the region of 400mm to 600mm apart. Measure again from the other side of the joist to reassure yourself. A dab of filler will enable you to redecorate the ceiling inconspicuously.

Why do you think you need a junction box?
 
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I have to say, in the modern real world, light fittings don't always get fixed to the joists or a noggin anymore.

I would like to say that in days of old, when ceilings were lath and plaster, those old boys always fitted noggins.

They did not. Sometimes they would fix to the lath, and it usually worked out.

As rough as it is, unless it's something really heavy and moving like a ceiling fan, there is no longer the incentive to fix a wooden noggin unless it's easy to.

Of course, if you have access, fit a wooden noggin between the joists to fix the light to. This would save redecorating the ceiling.

The cup of the fitting will house four 5amp connector blocks, forget that old rose, and forget making a hole in the ceiling big enough for a junction box, because covering the hole and trying to get a fixing would be a drama.

I suppose the question is, is the fitting too heavy to fix with plasterboard fixings?

If you don't mind doing a repair, and the cables will reach; or can be made to reach, I would of course recommend moving the light to the side of a joist.
 
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Is the new fitting particularly heavy?
What is above the ceiling?
Can you get up there, locate the position of the fixing and add woodwork to bear the weight?
A 1/2" board screwed to 2 battens that are then screwed to the joist either side ought to make a good support for this rather than just screwing into plasterboard.

It's not particularly heavy, no. There appears to be a good 30cm of void space above the ceiling as far as I can make out from using a coat hanger. Unfortunately there's no access from above, so the only access I can get is from taking apart the ceiling in this room.

Why do you think you need a junction box?

What would the alternative be? There seem to be two circuits coming into this room (the two dark cables protruding from the ceiling into the junction box). I presume these can be switched out with some terminal blocks/terminal strips?
 
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The cup of the fitting will house four 5amp connector blocks, forget that old rose, and forget making a hole in the ceiling big enough for a junction box, because covering the hole and trying to get a fixing would be a drama.

I suppose the question is, is the fitting too heavy to fix with plasterboard fixings?

If you don't mind doing a repair, and the cables will reach; or can be made to reach, I would of course recommend moving the light to the side of a joist.

I think you're right about the existing rose - I hadn't considered removing it outright; I guess it would be fairly trivial to switch it out for some connector blocks instead. I still have some concerns about fitting them all into the existing cup fitting as it's fairly tight in there already.

Regarding the plasterboard fixings, what would you recommend I screw into them to attach the chandelier to? Again, whatever fitting I choose would presumably need to fit inside the cup alongside the replacement connector blocks.
 
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To me, there is plenty of room in the cup to do this connections, but then I'm used to it.

I would recommend a hook plate. This is a strip of metal about 2.5 inches long, with two holes spaced 2 inches apart. The hook is in the middle.

The trouble with a hook plate is weather it's going to be too close to the ceiling to accept the hook on the light fitting.

With that in mind, you may need to screw a bigger, ordinary hook to the ceiling.

Or, maybe a piece of chain betwwen the hook plate and the light fitting would solve the problem.

Rubbish design of light really, but there you go.

For plasterboard, readi-drives are available, but these can fail when you are screwing them in, particularly if you are inexperienced.

This leaves a hole too big to try again - but spring toggles will fit in such a hole nicely, and these don't fail if installed correctly.

Is it practical to move the light to a joist? Do you have access above?

HOW HEAVY IS THE LIGHT?
 
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John had a good point about leaving the rose where it is, fixing the new light to a nearby joist, and running a flex between the two.

There is a name for that style, you see it in modern restaurants, and I've even been asked to do it that way. I suppose it looks rustic. Looks terrible to me though.
 
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There seem to be two circuits coming into this room (the two dark cables protruding from the ceiling into the junction box).

ceiling roses in UK usually have three cables to them - supply in (from the previous rose), supply out (to the next rose) and Switch.

If it's the last one on the circuit they just have supply in and switch.

A rose can accomodate all those. Perhaps you are calling the Rose a junction box.
 
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That fitting is missing machine screws that fit into the part that suspends from the hook (have you got that part?) attached to the ceiling. This is so you can attach an earth tag to the fitting to supplement the earth in the flex going to the lampholders.

You can see where the screws fit there is an "earth" symbol.

The ceiling hooks are like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Ch...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00IXYIGZQ
 
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I used one of these
shopping
. The slide has a 1/2” BSB female thread to accept a matching tube or threaded hook supplied. A white grommet is supplied when the Maestro is used with a light fitting supported by a flexible cord.

The base has the normal connections found with any ceiling rose, and you are connecting everything with no weight being supported, since it is rated maximum safe working load using hook provided 5Kg you clearly need some good thing for it to screw into.
 
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Because I live in a cottage with old lathe & plaster ceilings I had a problem when I wanted to mount a fan/light.
The old fitting was fixed to the laths in the centre between the joists. I found the joist centres by tapping, (and small hole drilling to confirm), then screwed a piece of 4" x 1" timber across them on the ceiling surface, (drilled a hole in the centre for the cables first). Filled in a few small gaps with caulk as the ceiling is uneven. I then gave it several coats of paint to blend it in with the ceiling before attaching the fitting. Don't even notice it now and none of the family, (my biggest critics), have ever said anything.
 
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