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Blagdon Powersafe Outdoor Wall Socket Kit

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by JAmmmmm, 27 Apr 2011.

  1. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    I note that another of their products is the plug-in RCD they show. It's a 25mA device, and of it they say (and the emphasis is theirs, not mine)

    Prevents household RCD activation on faults up to 30mA. Specific Water
    Garden Circuit Breaker working at 25mA means that your house mains
    electric supply (30mA) WON’T be cut, should you experience an
    outdoor electrical fault (between 25-30mA).


    So use one of those, and a 29mA fault will not trip the RCD in the CU.

    Hmmmm......
     
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  3. Adam_151

    Adam_151

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    I'm not even sure i've ever seen a 25ma RCD, nor a tester capable of testing them at 25ma. So not convinced that such a beast exists and is not just a printing error
     
  4. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    You could surely use any ramp tester designed to check 30mA ones?

    But they seem quite definite - stressing that because it's 25mA/30mS then any fault between 25 and 30mA will trip that, and not the one in the CU.

    I'm sure that when the ASA ask them they'll be able to produce the results of all the tests they've run against every 30mA RCD on the UK market, with 25-30mA faults, showing that their claim is indeed honest and truthful.
     
  5. DetlefSchmitz

    DetlefSchmitz

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    Just for context, and because not everyone seems to realise it...

    The specification for a 30mA RCD is that it will not trip at 15mA and will trip at 30mA. i.e. it will trip somewhere between 15 and 30mA. This Blagdon one, then, is claimed to trip between 15 and 25mA, and therefore before the house RCD.

    Any leakage between 15 and 30mA will therefore actually randomly trip either one first.

    Is it the marketing department which is so far out of touch with reality?

    As an aside, in one of my phone calls with an MK engineer, he expressed exasperation with claims made by their marketing department, and said he would have a whole line of boxed items removed from the sheds. It never happened of course.
     
  6. Adam_151

    Adam_151

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    You could, but that will tell you what current level it trips out at, rather than the time taken at 25ma and 125ma... you could run the 30ma and 150ms tests per a 30ma device and then ramp test it to prove its tripping at <25ma ,but its making a few assumptions
     
  7. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    As you may recall, that's identical to what an MK engineer told me (and I reported here) a few weeks ago, in relation to what their 'technical documentation' (apparently under the control of the marketing dept!) said about the 'current ratings' of 2 gang sockets!

    Mind you, on that occasion I was told I was being 'arrogant' for assuming that anyone in this forum would believe my account of what an MK engineer had said to me :)

    Kind Regards, John.
     
  8. Stoday

    Stoday

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    These items are neither electrical equipment nor cables so do not form part of an electrical installation. ("electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment...).

    Wall brackets are not electrical equipment, so do not form part of an electrical installation.
    Wall brackets are not electrical equipment, so do not form part of an electrical installation.

    2:25 - we see her lift the unit off the bracket without the use of tools, showing that it's not fixed to the bracket.

    2:35 - we see her hooking the unit back on the bracket.
    No you don't. You see her fixing cleats to the wall. Cleats are not electrical equipment, so do not form part of an electrical installation.
    Fixings are not electrical equipment, so do not form part of an electrical installation.
    No you don't. You see her fixing cleats to the fence. Cleats are not electrical equipment, so do not form part of an electrical installation.

    Now I'll concede that if the cables are fixed in the cleats, then the cables themselves could be considered to be fixed. But they could be loose within the cleats. Are they then fixed? Consider this:

    If the cables lay on the ground, they are clearly not fixed, even though their support (the ground) is fixed. If they are installed in conduit, the conduit has to be fixed before any cables are drawn in (to meet BS7671). The cables are not fixed to the conduit, so are the cables fixed? I think not. Now to the cleats. If they are sized so that they cannot grip the cable, is the cable then fixed? I think not.

    BAS seems to think that if the support of electrical equipment is fixed, then so too is the electrical equipment. In the case of the subject of this topic, it's fixed even though it can be lifted off the bracket. So too is a wall mounted TV that is hooked on a bracket, i.e. it's "otherwise secured" to the bracket. A TV on a fixed shelf is also "otherwise secured" to the shelf by gravity. Hey, so too is a TV that's placed on the floor. So BAS's definition of what's fixed leads you to the ridiculous conclusion that all TVs are subject to part P.

    This is BAS's definition that is at the root of the ludicrous issue of the TVs. My definition is:

    Fixed Equipment. Equipment that is fixed such that a passing thief can't grab it and make away with it.

    That definition identifies fixed electrical equipment without the silly consequences of BAS's definition.
     
  9. coolhands

    coolhands

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    errr.... okaaaay

    just make sure you get it put into the regs so the rest of the world can read all about it when the 18th edition is published :mrgreen:
     
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  11. riveralt

    riveralt

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    BAS certainly has his nickers in a twist over this one and the more he comments the more silly he seems.
    As I said the desire to pursue this matter through the Advertising Standars Agency is futile... I told him a few times but he still insists - perhaps he need to look at this link
    http://www.asa.org.uk/Regulation-Explained/What-we-cover/Complaints-outside-remit.aspx
    and if he still believes he is right then its Trading Standards he wants...
     
  12. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    So if you use them to fix electrical cables or electrical equipment in place then the electrical cables or electrical equipment are not fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment?


    So an air conditioning unit (for example) fixed to gallows brackets fixed to a wall is not an item of fixed electrical equipment?


    So if you use cleats to fix a cable to the wall, it is not a fixed cable?

    Since you are such an expert on this topic, I wonder if you could give me some advice.

    In case I should ever need to fix electrical cables, or electrical equipment to a wall, can you tell me where I can buy electrical cleats, electrical screws, electrical wall plugs and electrical brackets, since it is not possible to end up with fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment by using regular cleats, screws, wallplugs or brackets, as they are not electrical equipment.


    In your universe, Stoday, is there any way to end up with fixed wiring?



    Actually, it's not "my" definition, it's the one in BS 7671, which seems apposite.

    And BTW - I've never claimed that a TV sitting on a shelf is fixed - only an idiot would claim to have deduced that I was from what I've said.


    I can't decide whether to add that to the list of Stodays Barmy Definitions, or point out that if we accept it, the cable is fixed (I'd like to see a passing thief grab it and make away with it), and so whatever you think about the fixed-or-not-status of the socket, we've got a fixed electrical cable, which therefore makes it an electrical installation within the scope of Part P.
     
  13. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    Can you provide a reasoned, logical, and intelligent explanation of why it is silly to think that an electrical cable cleated to a wall is a fixed electrical cable?



     
  14. riveralt

    riveralt

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    Come on BAS at least put the full information provided on their website.

    Products, services and contractual disputes
    Companies' trading practices, contractual matters, the quality of goods and services, claims on packaging and trade names are all dealt with by trading standards.


    How about...

    Products, services and contractual disputes
    Companies' trading practices, contractual matters, the quality of goods and services, claims on packaging and trade names are all dealt with by trading standards.



    I am simply disagreeing with your assertion that the ASA is the right place to go when I know from experience that it is not.

    At least you are now coming around to accepting the ASA route is wrong route whereas Trading Standards is the right route.

    BAS - I did a search on the internet yesterday and found that, in the past, someone else was using your alias on the screwfix website. I know it wasn't you because this person seemed to respect the views of others and recognised that sometimes there are two sides to a story. This person also recognised that there could be two possible right answers to the same question and that others are entitled their opinion without be shouted down or asked to the explain the reasons for their statements in what can only be described as a diatribe. Sometimes others know more than you BAS ;)

    Strange as it seems, BAS, I do agree with most of what you say - it is the way you say it that I fundamentally disagree with.
     
  15. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    Is packaging the only place that they make the claims?

    Do they not make it in brochures?

    Do they not make it on websites?

    Do you really think that companies can avoid their advertising claims being subject to investigation by the ASA by also making the claims in ways which are outwith the ASA's remit?


    But why?

    My assertion is not that their products are dangerous.

    My assertion is not that their products fail to meet any standards which apply to them.

    My assertion is not that they are falsely claiming standards compliance for any of their products.

    My assertion is not one of a Trading Standards offence.

    My assertion is that they make false claims in their advertising for these products.

    My assertion is that they make these false and misleading claims in leaflets and brochures, a matter which is explicitly within the remit of the ASA. They make them in advertisements on the Internet, a matter which is explicitly within the remit of the ASA.

    I have absolutely no idea what you thought you could credibly achieve by trying to make out that Blagdon's false and misleading claims about the Building Regulations and the discriminatory nature of 25mA vs 30mA RCDs were only to do with credit advertising, financial advertising, medicines, political advertising, or any of the other categories which are identified as being outside the ASA's remit.


    No - please try to read properly, it makes things so much easier.

    I said that you might be right in thinking that the ASA will end up doing nothing. That is not remotely the same as thinking that making false claims in advertisements is a matter for Trading Standards rather than the ASA.

    It would be interesting to know what you think the ASA will investigate if they won't investigate false and misleading claims in advertising media which they explicitly say are in their remit.


    I respect other views which are worthy of respect.

    When you try to make out that a false and misleading claim in a brochure on a company's website is not in the ASA's remit because of a list of things not in their remit which does not include brochures on a company's website and when a list of things in their remit does include brochures on a company's website then you've not really expressed any views worthy of respect.

    When you try to make out that it is silly to regard a cable cleated to a wall as being a fixed electrical cable then you've not really expressed any views worthy of respect.


    So are there two possible right answers to the question

    "Are false and misleading claims made in brochures available on a company's website within the remit of the ASA to investigate?"?

    You might like to refer to these pages before answering that.

    http://www.asa.org.uk/Regulation-Explained/What-we-cover.aspx

    http://www.asa.org.uk/Regulation-Explained/Online-remit.aspx


    You have refused to explain why a cable cleated to a wall could reasonably be said to not be a fixed electrical cable.

    You have refused to explain why, when the Building Regulations say that "“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter" that it's only my personal view that a fixed electrical cable qualifies as an "electrical installation".

    You have refused to show where Part P says that it only applies to notifiable work.

    You have refused to show where Part P says that it only applies to permanent installations.

    You have said "BAS certainly has his nickers in a twist over this one and the more he comments the more silly he seems", and you have tried to prove that you were right to tell me that the ASA would not investigate any complaint because of a list of exclusions which anyone with an IQ bigger than their shoe size can see is irrelevant.

    If you think that I'm not going to forcefully take issue with you over omissions and commissions like that then you are sadly deluded.


    Then it is your duty to properly expound your superior knowledge, in order to help those less knowledgeable than yourself.

    You could start by explaining why a cable cleated to a wall is not a fixed electrical cable.

    You could then explain where non-notifiable and non-permanent electrical installations are exempt from the provisions of Part P.

    You could then explain how a 25mA RCD will always trip before a 30mA one.

    You could then explain why false and misleading claims made in brochures available on a company's website are not within the remit of the ASA to investigate.


    So does that justifying you writing complete b****cks saying that I'm wrong?

    Do you dislike how I say things so much that you're prepared to try and make out that what I say is wrong even though you agree with it?

    How old are you?
     
  16. nozspark

    nozspark

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    This is a quote from the approved document P 2006 edition which I think could be helpful

    Page 9

    k. The installation of prefabricated, “modular” systems (for example kitchen lighting systems and armoured garden cabling) linked by plug and socket connectors is not notifiable, provided that products are CE-marked and that any final connections in kitchens and special locations are made to existing connection units or points (possibly a 13A socket outlet).
     
  17. riveralt

    riveralt

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    quod erat demonstrandum :rolleyes:

    Old enough to stand up to bully's.
     
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