Britains working time opt out clause

[david and julie]

You think farm policy would be different without the EU? how, exactly?

'Legislation' is a catch-all, not an example of anything. Everything governments do is 'legislation'.

Yes, we now have citizenship rights to llive and work on most of Europe. A definite plus.

Possibly 68% of the populaton does not care about the EU because frankly it does not make a blind bit of difference to how they live, either good or bad.

I will take your points in order.

Without the EU and their CAP we would not have to subsidise the antiquated farming methods of almost third world memberstates, we would be freer to buy cheaper on the world markets or subsidise are own farmers in a less cumbersome and bureacratic way, we would also be able to manage our own waters.

Everything Gov's do is not legisation, an example is your old favourite Iraq.

The ability to live and work in Europe was there before the EU came into being. The problem now being more of them want to come here rather than vise versa.(but not to work)

Possibly 68% of the populaton does not care about the EU because frankly it does not make a blind bit of difference to how they live, either good or bad.

The comment wasn't that 68% don't care, it was that 68% don't want in. What about the other parts of the post which you have failed to comment on, are they true or false?

England has already lost control of its farming, courts, fishing, legislation, citizenship and so on. Those of you who have voted Tony Blair effectively gave him a free hand to sell what is left of English independence. When Prime Ministers attend the EU meetings, nobody know beforehand about what will be discussed and afterwards when the deals have been done, it is impossible to undo them

 

[david and julie]

Big all. The labour Gov has had enough time to restore those rights but has chosen not to do so.

 

[kendor]

When the tories sold off everything and signed us up for europe and the such they knew what they was doing and how hard it would be for a succesive government to turn things back how they were without great cost or hardship due to them having committed us to these schemes, so it's a bit unfair to blame labour for these problems, all they can do is try to make the system work now we are stuck with it.

 

[Damocles]

Outside the EU british consumers would be buying up cheap dumped food from the EU. Which would leave us in exactly the same position as now. Either we would accept that British farmers would be forced out of business completely or we would have our own expensive system of farm subsidy. Which is what we had before we joined.

Fishing would be just the same. British fishermen would still be moaning that they were forbidden to fish in order to conserve stocks. Either that or all the fish would be gone already if we had not introduced a fishery protection scheme of our own. We are still generally overfishing.

Ultimately everything IS legislation. Granting yourslf power to lock up dissidents without trial? Going to war because the law says you can just order the generals to start shooting?

No, you have a right to go to Europe now. Like you have a right to live here.

Both labour and previous conservative governments have looked upon cheap labour as a good thing. They also look upon an increasing population as a good thing. Which is why people get massive grants and tax cuts to have children. Has this changed?

The good thing about people coming from other EU countries is that they will go home again. The history of the EU has shown that this has happened every time a poor country has joined. They all go home again once their own countries have sorted themselves out a bit. They go home because they can come and go at will so actually they are less likely to looses touch with their homes. They go home because almost everyone prefers to live in their own country.

68% really don't care and aren't affected anyway. DONT CARE means they dont care whether they are in or out. They do not want out.

Courts? We are subject to the European court of human rights, which arbitrates in cases of breeches of human rights (which we have signed up to but not actually implemented. How typical of ther UK). Though in most cases the government just ignores a ruling it does not like and promises to do something about it sometime.


I suspect everyone knows what will be discussed beforehand at EU meetings and the result has probably already been largely agreed. Blair will continue to do what politicians always do. He will negotiate the best deal he can for the benefit of the country. Never think that any world leader anywhere is completely free to do exactly what he wants. Even Bush.

 

[Thermo]

sorry, but did not the tory party fight tooth and nail for various rebates, exemptions and opt out clauses, which labour is now systematically giving away?

 

[Damocles]

No, the tories just had better PR to highlight the important things they were fighting for and down play the areas where they thought concessions would not matter (or would in fact benefit us). Remember, the other states are bound by the rules too. So negotiation allows us to force them to do things they did not want.

 

[masona]

it's a bit unfair to blame labour for these problems, all they can do is try to make the system work now we are stuck with it.

Agreed but having said that, Blair is not doing anything to stop it as he's trying to get us into the EU at all costs and did you know that the EU wants to ban political parties dissent of which it disapproves? When this happens we will all be living in a dictatorship under the EU. Blair can stop this but won't.
Tony Blair is so unpopular and is the greatest threat to England. In my view he's the worst Prime Minister there has ever been and again I will repeat this, he will sell England to the EU in order to reserve for himself a place at the EU. Remember Kinnock a failed politician, guess where he is and his wife, son-in-law and so on.

68% really don't care and aren't affected anyway. DONT CARE means they dont care whether they are in or out. They do not want out.

I think they do care but like many people including me is that we don't fully understand what is happening through the back door lies.

 

[big-all]

Big all. The labour Gov has had enough time to restore those rights but has chosen not to do so.

i agree with you there although some of the so called "red tape"is actualy ledgislation to give workers better conditions.
of course tory blair is so in businesses pocket that he prefers profit over people.

now i know companys have to make a profit thats the way the system works wether you agree with it or not .
but the ballance should be redressed with more enficiss going to the workers

 

[masona]

tory blair is so in businesses pocket that he prefers profit over people.

Sadly that's true, they are all as bad as each others. New Labour is really a right wing tories.

 

[jasy]

I heard they had agreed a compromise. That the opt out would continue but anyone who had opted out (for example as a condition of getting a job) would be entitled to opt back in again.

So who is in favour of compulsory overtime?

You already get an opt out from the 48 hour week as the scheme is currently operational in this country. However, who should decide how many hours i work when i am not on a salary but an hourly rate. Don't tell me Damocles it should be the Iraqi government!!!

 

[david and julie]

Damocles wrote.

Outside the EU british consumers would be buying up cheap dumped food from the EU. Which would leave us in exactly the same position as now.

I don't understand your logic, how are we not better off if our food is cheaper? "Dumped" means sold below cost price, it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it.

Fishing would be just the same. British fishermen would still be moaning that they were forbidden to fish in order to conserve stocks. Either that or all the fish would be gone already if we had not introduced a fishery protection scheme of our own. We are still generally overfishing.

Surely mathematics says that if our our waters were only for our consumption the stocks would last longer? Granted we would still need some control but we could manage that ourselves.

Ultimately everything IS legislation. Granting yourslf power to lock up dissidents without trial? Going to war because the law says you can just order the generals to start shooting?

What new legislation was required for our pathetic Iraq escapade?

No, you have a right to go to Europe now. Like you have a right to live here.

I see this right as useless because, like most people I don't want to live there. How many out of our circa 60M population actually exercise this supposed right?

Both labour and previous conservative governments have looked upon cheap labour as a good thing. They also look upon an increasing population as a good thing. Which is why people get massive grants and tax cuts to have children. Has this changed?

What massive grants do you mean? Are you really saying the Gov is trying to nurture future cheap labour?

The good thing about people coming from other EU countries is that they will go home again. The history of the EU has shown that this has happened every time a poor country has joined

But are the majority of immigrants from the EU? I have been unable to find any figures to support your suggestion, where did they come from?

Courts? We are subject to the European court of human rights, which arbitrates in cases of breeches of human rights (which we have signed up to but not actually implemented.

If we left the EU we would still be under the jurisdiction of this court. Although similar sounding in name I believed the European court of human rights was nothing to do with the EU. I also understood the UK was one of the instigators of this court coming into being, some 20 years or so before we joined the EU.

I suspect everyone knows what will be discussed beforehand at EU meetings and the result has probably already been largely agreed. Blair will continue to do what politicians always do. He will negotiate the best deal he can for the benefit of the country. Never think that any world leader anywhere is completely free to do exactly what he wants. Even Bush.

suspicions are not facts though are they? if these consultations were held in the commons, before going to the EU meetings, they would indeed be in the open, however this is not the case. This is why many of these agreements are unheard of by the public and also why they don't always appear in hansard.

No, the tories just had better PR to highlight the important things they were fighting for and down play the areas where they thought concessions would not matter (or would in fact benefit us). Remember, the other states are bound by the rules too. So negotiation allows us to force them to do things they did not want.
__________________

No Government has ever been as PR aware as the present one who are spin mad. The previous tories were mere amateurs by comparison.

 

[Damocles]

If we were buying cheap food from abroad in direct competition with our own farmers we have the same problem as now. Either let them go bust or pay them ever increasing subsidies. Many third world farmers have been forced out of business by subsidised food.

You were talking about problems of immigration due to the EU. I noted exactly as you say that there is no problem of immigration from the EU, precisely because we belong to it and people can come and go as they please.

If you believe that a British government ever discusses anything important in the commons before deciding beforehand what its position is, then you are mistaken. Exactly the same with the EU. Always decide before having any public discussion.

Having much of your spin and PR ending up as a source of public discussion does not seem to me to be the most brilliant way of doing it. Far far better if no one even notices what you have done.

 

[david and julie]

We are already buying cheaper or better food from outside the EU, only today I bought potatoes from Isreal. I do not understand what you are saying. The gainers,in the main, from CAP, are the bigger farmers and land owners, subsidies often bear no reality to food production, in the UK they are often just a transference system of taxpayers money going to the rich.
Do you never listen to what the smallholders tell you on this forum?

Yes, we now have citizenship rights to llive and work on most of Europe. A definite plus.

You brought immigration into the debate not me, as far as I am concerned I have no interest in living outside the UK, if I did it wouldn't be in the EU. If you want to see the real costs of immigration go and look in a local council estate and then go and look in a private estate. Alternatively go and sit outside the local DSS office for a few hours.

When are you going to reply with some facts to back up what you said about the EU "visitors" going back home eventually?

 

[Damocles]

Couldn't tell you where now, but there are statistics on how all the irish have gone home to Ireland.

Potatoes in May from Israel? Perhaps that has something to do with the difficulties of raising a potatoe crop in Britain through the winter, on account of it being a bit too cold for them to grow. The same being true in most member states.

Yes, the Eu has indeed got sick of giving out subsidies for growing stuff which they then have to dispose of. So now the subsidy is being reorganised so that you will still get it without even having to pretend to try to grow something. Much more sensible really. Hence the fuss the other day about people getting subsidy to grow cover for pheasant shooting.

Strangely enough immigration into this country has been encouraged quite a lot by many governments. The present fuss is mostly because of perceived overcrowding. Which is mostly because governments have banned new housebuilding. Which is mostly because of all and sundry lobby groups not wanting anything built right next to them.

 

[david and julie]

Damocles any chance of telling the thieving scruffs encamped on a local football pitch (which now resembles a tip) that they should have gone back home? I'm sure they don't realise it as they keep moving around here instead.

Yes, the Eu has indeed got sick of giving out subsidies for growing stuff which they then have to dispose of. So now the subsidy is being reorganised so that you will still get it without even having to pretend to try to grow something. Much more sensible really.

More sensible to you maybe, to me more sensible would be to give them nothing instead. Don't you recognise public money going into private(and mostly wealthy) pockets when you see it?

Strangely enough immigration into this country has been encouraged quite a lot by many governments. The present fuss is mostly because of perceived overcrowding. Which is mostly because governments have banned new housebuilding. Which is mostly because of all and sundry lobby groups not wanting anything built right next to them.

Perceived overcrowding? the public services are at bursting point struggling to cope as it is. Whats all this about the Government banning new house building? Has the 500000 proposed new houses, down South alone, been scrapped?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3747042.stm
Don't know about where you live but near me we are approaching over development. Sites the were once considered unsuitable are being built on, often with totally ugly and far to small houses or flats. Under John Prescotts reign the developers have never had it better, the councils in most cases are now powerless to stop their greed, which is now, more than ever, encroaching onto our greenbelts. Regardless of ones political hue, this is poor and unwanted expansion that should be resisted. If the developers got their way we would be completely covered in bricks and concrete.