Cold Home - Thermal Camera/Flir One

[motorbiking]

Motorbiking - Can you show me where on the pic you think loft insulation is required?

In picture 7 & 8 there is excessive heat loss coming from the upper roof walls, compared to your neighbours, this suggest you might not have:
- enough insulation - you really want 300mm if you can.
- the insulation isn't laid properly allowing the heat to escape.

However the camera doesn't take account of different heating temps internally. For example your thermostat might be set to 23 degrees and theirs 18.

 

[^woody^]

Thermal cameras are like damp meters, they show you something but the trick is to know what the readings actually mean.

Your images show nothing out of the ordinary.

I've not read the monster thread, but has there been any mention of what are you actually meaning by "cold" rooms, heating system, heating pattern, radiator sizing, heat loss calculations, energy usage? You know, all the most obvious things?

 

[awilliams]

@phatboy - Thanks very much for the links and info.

@endecotp - No, but it's going to be used to mainly fill gaps under skirting boards, but I'm going to use fire-version for windows.

@motorbiking - That room/attic is not heated at all. Rather than putting rockwool type insulation, I might use kingspan instead.

@^woody^ - I know it's not perfect, but it does show me quite a number of areas where I already had some suspicion of cold/draughts. For example the gaps under the skirting draught which I could feel at the back of my neck when sat on a sofa nearby. I used the thermal camera and found the temperature of the air blowing straight into the room was around 1.5C. As a test I blocked a small portion gap with old pipe lagging and the temperature is now hovering around 15C and I can't feel any cold air at all. Now I plan to block all the gaps under the skirting which should in turn make the room warmer. Having said that, I would appreciate any tips you can give to get quick and less costly hits to reduce heat loss. This thread has is long because I think it affects a lot of people and I'm sure many will appreciate the help you guys provide

 

[^woody^]

but it does show me quite a number of areas where I already had some suspicion of cold/draughts

And those areas will always show up as colder on an IR image, because its all relative and different materials, but it does not mean that those are actually problems or even that you can do anything about them.

Obviously, if there is a draught cause from a gap then you should be looking to seal these, and you don't need a thermal camera for that. But bear in mind that you can get draughts where there are no gaps.

What you need to be doing is determining whether your perception of coldness is actually just down to you or if there is an actual heating issue. And you should certainly be looking at those other things I mentioned instead of jumping straight to a glamorous thermal camera and trying to fix things that don't need or can't be fixed.

 

[awilliams]

I understand where you're coming from woody, but I can assure you that it's not a simple perception of mine. My whole family feel freezing cold and our heating bills are hitting through the roof. The thermal camera helps me more easily locate issues where there possibly might be a cold area. I don't just look at the colours, but also look at other factors such as temperature, the surrounding room, different types of surfaces etc. Also I was following the excellent advice that John gave, which is to resolve any draft issues first and then look at more expensive resolutions.

As for the thermal camera, I bought it for what many would agree on this forum a very cheap price so I've got no complaints.

 

[^woody^]

Have you done any simple heat loss/radiator sizing calculations?

Is this a new house or have you lived there for years and put up with it? Or what has changed?

 

[awilliams]

This is an old semi, built approx 1935 and I've been putting up with the cold. I simply can't take it anymore, because it's cold and the heating bills are too high. I did radiator size checks a while ago and they are correct. For example my smallest room is 8ft L, by 7ft, W by 7ft H....I've fitted a radiator which is approx 1800 BTU. All our rooms have double panel radiators. But even as I'm sat now typing, I can feel draught coming from somewhere, so I can assure you, I'm not just feeling cold, I am actually very cold

 

[endecotp]

Woody is right that experience is needed to understand what the camera is showing you. Did you look at the link I posted on the first page? That guy compares what he can see using a camera himself with what an experienced surveyor can see.

I don’t think an IR camera can possibly help to find draughts.

I think I said before that draughts around windows can actually be due to convection on the cold glass surface. Did someone mention using joss sticks to find where the draughts are coming from?

Are the radiators in the right places in the rooms?

 

[motorbiking]

There is so much you can do that won’t cost the earth. If you can access the pipes, insulate them. If you don’t have TRVs fit them so you don’t overheat rooms. Increase the loft roll. Fit thermal curtains, thicker carpet.

A good chunk of my house is 1920s with solid walls so I know how you feel. Apart from extending it and adding modern walls. I’ve taken plaster back to brick and replaced with celotex under plasterboard.

insulated pipes increased radiator size so they heat quicker and installed two wood burners which can push 4-5kw each on a good day. But all this was done over 20 years of DIY an renovation.

If you have open chimneys make sure they don’t have excess air flow.

 

[^woody^]

This is an old semi, built approx 1935 and I've been putting up with the cold. I simply can't take it anymore, because it's cold and the heating bills are too high. I did radiator size checks a while ago and they are correct. For example my smallest room is 8ft L, by 7ft, W by 7ft H....I've fitted a radiator which is approx 1800 BTU. All our rooms have double panel radiators. But even as I'm sat now typing, I can feel draught coming from somewhere, so I can assure you, I'm not just feeling cold, I am actually very cold

You are reliant on having radiators that output heat faster than the room looses it. It really does come down to that, and a thermal camera is not going to help.

So if your pre-war house is not insulated then there is not a lot you can do except plug gaps or ensure the heating system is adequate.

Apart from the obvious holes and gaps and open doors/windows, the two main causes of draughts will be

• the radiator position/heating pattern - hot convected air rising from a radiator will draw cooler air towards the radiator within the room (tends to be felt nearer the floor), and air will be drawn from heated to cooler rooms if the house is not heated uniformly (tends to be felt higher up). Also using the heating in on/off patterns wont give the structure time to heat up and retain heat - leading to warm air and very cold surfaces which create draughts.
• gaps around floor and ceiling joists within the floor or ceiling void. Difficult to cure without taking the floor apart, but you could potentially deal with gaps at the skirting or fill gaps between floorboards

Also, even double glazing can create down draughts but the better units and thermally broken frames can reduce this.

 

[awilliams]

endecotp - i did take a look at your link and I've already learnt some of the methods mentioned, so thank you I'm using joss sticks in combination with the thermal camera.

motorbiking - Rooms have already got trv valves, but at the moment, i haven't got access to the piping but once I start the renovation work i plan to cover pipes. Is it worth using very slim kingspan to cover external walls?

Woody - Your 100% correct in saying that I'm reliant on radiators which output heat faster than the room loses it, which explains why my heating bills are so high.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I want to work in chronological order of looking for cheapest/quick hit solutions first and then start looking at more expensive solutions. My plan is to firstly focus on finding gaps & broken/faulty seals where draughts could possibly be leaking from and repair these first. Once this is done, I then plan to look at the heating system and radiators, then more expensive solutions such as replacing doors /windows and insulation.

 

[motorbiking]

Its not clear from the photos the thickness of your cavity or if you have almost solid walls. I'm estimating that your current U-value is around 2.0 - 2.5 W/m2k. Adding 20mm of Celotex and replasterboarding the internal walls will bring this down by about half. Depending on the renovation you plan and the quality of the internal plaster, you could take it back to the brick and go with 50mm. That will get you a reduction of about 2/3rd. I'd only consider this if you need to do major rewiring or your plaster is in poor condition.

You do of course realise that the cheapest short term solution is adding some fan heaters. Turning your heating on for longer etc.

 

[tomfe]

How much are you spending on heating and how long is it on for what fuel are you using etc
It may be that you've moved to an older bigger property which just costs more yo heat.
Be carefull of plugging all your holes, you may cause injury. Carbon monoxide kills a lot of people. You may also get an increase in condensation. An airtight house is still designed to be ventilated just in a controlled manner.

 

[awilliams]

motorbiking - I do have "random" cavity and at guess, they around around 15-20cm? I wouldn't mind insulating internally and I will eventually get this done, but right now I can't afford large projects and just want quick hits on small jobs.

tomfe - Around £2-2.5k per annum. The older house was actually larger than this with basements. I know what your saying regarding plugging all holes and I do plan to leave some open for air ventilation.


Having said that, I really appreciate the advise you guys gave and bought expanding foam to fill the gaps below the skirting.

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Here are the Before/After shots (Please do let me know what you think and whether you can make any suggestions for further improvements):

BEFORE - Very Cold Draught​

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AFTER - Little/No Draught​

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[HERTS P&D]

WOW, much improved.

Well done.

Andy