Exactly.
In fact, perhaps more tol the point, even if they did want to think that way, I very much doubt that they would be allowed to.
Kind Regards, John.
Cut out fuse
- Thread starter newboy2011
- Start date
In fact, perhaps more tol the point, even if they did want to think that way, I very much doubt that they would be allowed to.
Kind Regards, John.
Sponsored Links
It may surprise you, but, given the differential situation which, as you say, has evolved, I don't really have any great argument with that. Ifr it were decided that everyone should have 'isolating switches' (I would suggest not just 'isolators', they should be able to be switched off 'on load' if necessary), then I think everyone should be nominally charged for them, but those who had already installed an acceptable equivalent at their own expense (and who agreed to maintain such a device in place) should be eligible for a rebate.
However, it's not going to happen - at least, not any year soon.
Kind Regards, John.
That's right. If "electricity" did not require a physical conductive connection to draw current, in other words if electrons just poured of of the ends of cables then you would see DNO isolation switches everywhere!! For safety? yes partially but also (I think) because of lost revenue!!
.
First of all, Thanks to John for this excellent thread which is all the more relevant because he's not an electrician.
I find some of the reasons given as to why we are not allowed to pull the fuse spurious to say the least.
I shall not argue with not being trained and authorised.
However, saying things like "it belongs to the DNO" is totally irrelevant and smacks of treating us like children. We do not want to steal or abuse it but merely 'use' it for one of the purposes for which it is intended and used. Not much would be earned only working on things that belonged to us. We work on other people's equipment and machinery every day - with their permission.
Saying things like "it may disintegrate" is incredulous and merely highlights poor practice on the part of the DNO by allowing equipment to be in service in people's homes which is so old and decrepit it is obviously no longer fit for purpose. I suspect this is more likely the real reason for the taboo.
I completely fail to understand the opposition to having a switch. It seems so obvious to me that it should be mandatory. Why someone from a DNO is opposed makes no sense at all as it need not be on THEIR side of the installation. They care about nothing else that is not on their side.
As to the cost of installation - this would be more than offset by one visit by DNO staff to pull the fuse for a CU change and as has been said the consumer would end up paying how ever it were levied.
I notice in the explanation of the training and authorisation the emphasis is on safety - all well and good and obvious - but a lot of it appears to be about 'bits of paper'.
Perhaps a lucrative living could be made by someone becoming trained and authorised and merely doing this for untrained and unauthorised electricians but from the explanation it would appear to be something of a closed shop. Perhaps a remnant from before privatisation.
First of all, Thanks to John for this excellent thread which is all the more relevant because he's not an electrician.
I find some of the reasons given as to why we are not allowed to pull the fuse spurious to say the least.
I shall not argue with not being trained and authorised.
However, saying things like "it belongs to the DNO" is totally irrelevant and smacks of treating us like children. We do not want to steal or abuse it but merely 'use' it for one of the purposes for which it is intended and used. Not much would be earned only working on things that belonged to us. We work on other people's equipment and machinery every day - with their permission.
Saying things like "it may disintegrate" is incredulous and merely highlights poor practice on the part of the DNO by allowing equipment to be in service in people's homes which is so old and decrepit it is obviously no longer fit for purpose. I suspect this is more likely the real reason for the taboo.
I completely fail to understand the opposition to having a switch. It seems so obvious to me that it should be mandatory. Why someone from a DNO is opposed makes no sense at all as it need not be on THEIR side of the installation. They care about nothing else that is not on their side.
As to the cost of installation - this would be more than offset by one visit by DNO staff to pull the fuse for a CU change and as has been said the consumer would end up paying how ever it were levied.
I notice in the explanation of the training and authorisation the emphasis is on safety - all well and good and obvious - but a lot of it appears to be about 'bits of paper'.
Perhaps a lucrative living could be made by someone becoming trained and authorised and merely doing this for untrained and unauthorised electricians but from the explanation it would appear to be something of a closed shop. Perhaps a remnant from before privatisation.
Sponsored Links
Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?
Not being trained is a pretty significant issue, as it makes it illegal under H&S legislation to pull the fuse.
Exactly - with their permission. In this case the owner of the equipment has not given his permission. In fact, IIRC, some owners have actually explicitly said that permission is denied.
Because I have yet to see a convincing argument of any advantage other that a commercial one for electrical contractors that may only be required every 25 years or so when a CU needs changing!
So yes fine the customer is welcome to fit an additional switch between the meter and the CU which will allow the CU to be changed (Hey you can do that anyway) but what if the additional switch needs changed? Should there be a further switch to allow this?
I'll keep saying this, get onto your trade bodies if you think this should be done, convince them of the benefits and see if they can change the legislation.
So the present process is via the DNO or supplier for which there may be a charge, so a suggestion is for AN Other to get authorised and make a charge. Yeah....right!
Come on guys, in normal circumstances these fuses only need removing every 10 years for meter changes (DNO or Supplier) and possibly every 25 years for a CU change.
I can see that if you are doing a lot of CU changes you need to do that extra bit of planning and organising to get a DNO or Supplier to turn up to make it dead but really how difficult is that? (don't forget that if they break an appointment the customer is entitled to compensation)
The industry has done away with the need for Wiring Completion certificates, inspections by Leccy board staff and all of that. All you are being asked to do is plan things and not put yourself in breech of the EAWR.
That's kind, but I didn't actually start the thread. I've merely been trying to introduce an outsider's perspective - something which can sometimes be of value. In essence, I agree totally with everything that EFLI has written ...
Indeed. One has to be careful in what one says, since it will always be argued that it's all about safety, and that anyone who challenges the situation is irresponsible - but you know my views about all that. As you say, it's amazing that one of the arguments is that cutouts can be so dangerous to handle - for that to remain allowed is, IMO, quite ridiculous - and an unnecessary (unaccpetable?) risk to DNO personnel at the very least.
However, ....
Same here, and I think this is the most important issue in the long-term. I can do no more than repeat my incredulity that a means of 'switching off the supply', accessible to everyone, is not mandatory - just as I'm sure it is for any other distributed supply of something potentially dangerous. As you say, it could be beyond the point of 'DNO owneship', so I'm at al loss to see why they are so 'anti' - and we've also agreed that the financial aspects are probably 'neutral' (in comparison with doing what the DNO would like) at worst.
However, even if switches were to become mandatory today, it would probably be very many years, probably decades, before they were installed in all installations, so we still have to address the current situation in which, as I wrote yesterday, we are relying on a '19th century' approach of pulling a fuse from a live circuit being the only way to disconnect a supply. Indeed, I'm surprised that we have got as far as the 21st century without cutouts at least becoming 'switch fuses' - so that one could remove the fuses with minimal risk (even to DNO personnel).
I do think that we need to try introduce some realism and pragmatism into this - which is why I asked about the 'statistics' relating to the proportion of, say, CU changes for which the DNO is called out to pull the fuse. If, as I suspect, the proprtion is quite low, then everyone, even the DNO, should surely be taking on board the real-world fact that, in practice, non-DNO-staff are very commonly pulling fuses (or working live) - and therefore see the need to address the question of the 'training' of those who, in reality, are so often doing it (whether they like it or not)?
Anyone like to make a guess at those statistics?
Kind Regards, John.
The meter for my new supply is being installed next week. There will be an isolating switch in the meter box even though I have said I do NOT want one.
My reason for not wanting one is that the box is easily accessible to passers by and the switch makes it very easy to turn off my electricity supply. It is very unlikely anyone should wish to do so but there have been instances where it has happened. If I was allowed to lock the box then no problem. But I cannot lock the box as the meter reader has to have access. If I had the new meter fitted inside the house then the meter reader could only read by appointment. As it is a listed building an internal meter was an option.
Why does the meter reader need access ? Modern intelligent meters do not need a meter reader, they phone home and send the readings. So the box could be locked. In a real emergency a fire axe will open the locked box to enable isolation of the supply.
My reason for not wanting one is that the box is easily accessible to passers by and the switch makes it very easy to turn off my electricity supply. It is very unlikely anyone should wish to do so but there have been instances where it has happened. If I was allowed to lock the box then no problem. But I cannot lock the box as the meter reader has to have access. If I had the new meter fitted inside the house then the meter reader could only read by appointment. As it is a listed building an internal meter was an option.
Why does the meter reader need access ? Modern intelligent meters do not need a meter reader, they phone home and send the readings. So the box could be locked. In a real emergency a fire axe will open the locked box to enable isolation of the supply.
That really is verging on 'looking for something to argue about'. There will obviously always be things sufficiently upstream to require DNO involvement. In passing, positioning a switch between cutout and meter would also presumably facilitate meter changes by 'less highly trained' personnel.
Yes, but what of the big picture? How many relevant electrical installations are ther in the UK - 25 million, perhaps (I suspect that's an under-estimate)? That would amount to around 1m CU changes and 2.5m meter changes every year. Given that the meter changes are currently pulling most of their own fuses, in terms of just CU changes that seems to amount something like 3.800 DNO callouts to pull fuses (and 3,800 callouts to replace fuses) every working day. Would 7,600 DNO callouts per day for this purpose be even remotely achievable with present resources? (i.e. are DNOs currently staffed on the asumption that a high proportion of people will break the rules?) Indeed, do you by any chance have any statsitics, even if only regional ones, as to how many such callouts there are?
Kind Regards, John.
I hadn't actually thought of that one, but if you live in an area where undesirables may switch off your supply, aren't they just as likely to pull the fuse (or worse)? If there is a concern, to have the isolating switch inside your property would be an obvious solution.
Do you mean that, or is there a 'not' missing from that sentence? If (as I suspect) the former, if you have concerns, why did you not go for the internal meter?
I see no flaws in that argument. I may be dreaming this, but ISTR having heard of situations in whic suppliers did put 'proper locks' on external meter boxes in some situations (with the meter readers obviously having keys). Mind you, no lock is going to be an answer to a crowbar or large hammer!
Kind Regards, John.
Do you actually think that reading the meter is the only reason meter readers require access!
There is far far more to it than that!
They are generally a risk if interfered with by unauthorised folk (like the local spark who failed to spot and report a poor contact that led to a fire and nearly killed the house owner)
Sat in a cupboatd or wherever they re fine!
P.S. I like any other DNO or supplier will never give permission to an unauthorised person to interfere with DNO apparatus, or agree that they should.
Here you go, if you are that convinced you have a case contact these folk!
http://2010.energynetworks.org/
There is far far more to it than that!
That is a non starter, I accept that most folk are honest but that one is a gift horse for anyone wishing to illegally abstract (steal) electricity.
They are generally a risk if interfered with by unauthorised folk (like the local spark who failed to spot and report a poor contact that led to a fire and nearly killed the house owner)
Sat in a cupboatd or wherever they re fine!
P.S. I like any other DNO or supplier will never give permission to an unauthorised person to interfere with DNO apparatus, or agree that they should.
Here you go, if you are that convinced you have a case contact these folk!
http://2010.energynetworks.org/
I meant that I could have had the meter inside the property as meter boxes on walls of listed buildings are not permitted if in any way they detract from the original appearance of the building.
The reason I didn't go for internal was that the cost to bring power into the cottage was about 3 times the price of bringing it to the kitchen extension which is not listed and could have an external ( flush ) meter box. And having the main CU in the kitchen had several other advantages
You've rather lost me there. Why should a ('sealed') switch between cutout and meter significantly increase the risk of theft of electricity? I suppose it means that those with criminal intent could break the seals (of switch and/or meter) and do their stealing without having to work live - but 'working live' (or pulling your fuses!) doesn't seem to deter that very small minority at present!
Kind Regards, John.
Could the kitchen not have had an internal meter?
DIYnot Local
Staff member
If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.
Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.
Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local
Sponsored Links
