Cut out fuse

[westie101]

You've rather lost me there. Why should a ('sealed') switch between cutout and meter significantly increase the risk of theft of electricity? I suppose it means that those with criminal intent could break the seals (of switch and/or meter) and do their stealing without having to work live - but 'working live' (or pulling your fuses!) doesn't seem to deter that very small minority at present!

Ah, but if it is a sealed switch it could not be used to isolate power to change a CU as that would mean the seal being broken by an electrician who would, in all probability, not be able to reseal it!

Pulling the fuse is not an issue if folk are properly trained and authorised.

 

[JohnW2]

Ah, but if it is a sealed switch it could not be used to isolate power to change a CU as that would mean the seal being broken by an electrician who would, in all probability, not be able to reseal it!

Sorry - I thought I was being clear (but obvioulsy not!) ... when I said 'sealed switch', I did not mean such that it had to be unsealed to operate it - merely that the connections to it should be sealed, to prevent tampering.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

Ah got ya!

 

[JohnW2]

Could the kitchen not have had an internal meter?

I think the implication of what Bernard wrote is that they will no longer fit internal meters for new supplies unless they are 'forced' to (e.g. by Listed Building rules).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[bernardgreen]

Could the kitchen not have had an internal meter?

In theory yes. As the main cottage is listed the kitchen is also seen as "listed" when it comes to exemptions for services. But it was far more convenient to have the meter external.

As soon as the mention of Listed Building was made the DNO and gas network became very helpful as regards planning where the meters could go for the best and most economical result. Until that point an internal electric meter was a definate NO.

With the meter external to the kitchen there was no need to tunnel under the footings and no need to give up wall space in the kitchen. The back of the meter box protrudes by about an inch into the single brick wall kitchen but this is acceptable as it is behind built in furniture. Tails not are concealed and not at any risk of harm. ( single brick wall )

 

[SimonH2]

Seeing as a colleague at work will soon be having a new CU fitted, and there's no isolator switch ...

Rather that trying to co-ordinate the DNO to come and remove the fuse, and then come back at the right time to put it back again. If asked, would the DNO come and fit a switch instead, and any idea what they'd charge ? It's in United Utilities (previously Norweb) area.

It would seem to be a sensible option : The DNO could come and do it anytime - the house is empty for refurb at the moment. Then the electrician can come and do the CU when it's convenient for him - again, since the house is empty he can do it when he's got a gap between jobs, rather than having to schedule it to fit with the DNO.


On the subject of outside meter boxes (or fugly boxes as I prefer to call them), I find it hard to believe they're legal. Everything seems to say that electrics and water aren't a good mix, yet here we are sticking unprotected electrics where they get exposed to the elements. In theory, it shouldn't rain in as long as the door isn't left open - but how many boxes have you seen with broken doors etc ?
My house has clearly had water in the meter box judging by the state of the back board :

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• SimonH2
• 16 Mar 2011
• 3

 

[westie101]

Viewing Cabinets
Usual problem is doors not secured by meter readers! For many years we would just come along and change the door/cabinet as a bit of customer service. The powers that be have decided that as the cabinet is the customers they are now responsible for it's care and maintenence (not found anyone on the coal face that agrees)

As for isolators ENWL is one of the DNO's that does not now fir or use them! However it depends which part of Cumbria you are in!! PM me!

 

[SimonH2]

Viewing Cabinets
Usual problem is doors not secured by meter readers! For many years we would just come along and change the door/cabinet as a bit of customer service. The powers that be have decided that as the cabinet is the customers they are now responsible for it's care and maintenence (not found anyone on the coal face that agrees)

And most customers will take the view that it's not something they wanted, the "lecky company" made them fit one, and why the heck should they have to repair something that broke because it's a **** poor pile of cheap plastic ?
Personally my view would be that the way to fix it is to rip the whole thing out of the wall and get a builder in to patch in the rendering with the instruction "I don't want a join to be visible". I reckon on the house I could take a couple of blocks out of the wall, feed the whole board/meter assembly through the hole into the garage (under the house) and remount it internally. The gas meter wold be a bit harder

As for isolators ENWL is one of the DNO's that does not now fir or use them! However it depends which part of Cumbria you are in!! PM me!

I assume that's a typo and should say "does not now fit or use them". That's interesting since the house and all the flats next door have them. I assume the ones in the flat aren't actually required since the installer provided switch/fuse is within the prescribed distance from the meter.

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• SimonH2
• 16 Mar 2011
• 2

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• SimonH2
• 16 Mar 2011
• 3

 

[westie101]

On an existing installation like that the meter board would have been pre-wired which we did for a time.
They would come equiped with cut-out, meter & isolator ready to fit in a cabinet or on a wall.

 

[JohnW2]

.... the house and all the flats next door have them. I assume the ones in the flat aren't actually required since the installer provided switch/fuse is within the prescribed distance from the meter.

What somewhat intrigues me is that all of the isolators in your piccies have been wired as only single-pole. Whilst (since its not a TT installation) there is theoretically no requirement to also isolate the neutral, I have to ask "why not?" (and could make some sugegstions as to 'why'!).

Westie - would SP isolation be what DNOs install (if/when they do install them)?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

The other pole was for off peak live tail use if the off peak was controlled by the timeswitch.
That way they were standard with the neutrals fed through the block and manually disconnectable.

As they were, generally, fitted to new supplies we would always be providing, usually, a PME earth.

 

[JohnW2]

The other pole was for off peak live tail use if the off peak was controlled by the timeswitch.
That way they were standard with the neutrals fed through the block and manually disconnectable.

Fair enough - at least that constitutes an explanation! However, if it were my installation, I think I'd prefer to see both conductors being isolated, even if it were PME - particularly if there were a 'spare' pole in the isolator available, and probably even if it meant two isolators, or a 3/4-pole one (if there were an 'off peak live tail').

As they were, generally, fitted to new supplies we would always be providing, usually, a PME earth.

Again, fair enough - although, as often discussed, the fact you you provide a PME earth does not oblige the consumer to use it - so they could theoretically have a TT installation (as I will probably do if/when I'm provided with a PME earth).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

It actually demonstrates an interesting point connected to the earlier discussions!
In that as the DNO isolator it is their decision as to the "duty" it is available for. Certainly there would be resistance to it being wired in different ways for the customer's preference.
In fact as it was/is included in a CoP anyone wiring it differently would lead themselves open to criticism.

It is very rare for a customer not to use a provided earth


I would suggest as well that the chosen layout made the possibility of connecting cross polarity harder to do (yes we have come across full installations with crossed polarity after electrical contractors have been involved in connections )

 

[JohnW2]

It actually demonstrates an interesting point connected to the earlier discussions! In that as the DNO isolator it is their decision as to the "duty" it is available for. Certainly there would be resistance to it being wired in different ways for the customer's preference. In fact as it was/is included in a CoP anyone wiring it differently would lead themselves open to criticism.

This is all a bit confusing. Although, if they supplied it, it would clearly be in some senses "the DNO isolator", if it's on the consumer's sde of the meter, it is also in some senses the consumer's responsibility, isn't it? Perhaps more to the point, if it is on the consumer's side of the meter, then it presumably comes within the scope of BS7671 - and, as such, if the consumer chose to have a TT system, there would be a requirement for DP isolation. Would the DNO not consider wiring it as DP if the consumer requested that for this reason?

It is very rare for a customer not to use a provided earth

I'm sure that's true - but,as I said, I may come to be one of the exceptions which proves that rule Would you regard me as foolish for doing that?

I would suggest as well that the chosen layout made the possibility of connecting cross polarity harder to do (yes we have come across full installations with crossed polarity after electrical contractors have been involved in connections )

That's obvioulsy true, but I think one has to assume competence on the part of those involved in connections within the installation - so that I don't really regard that, in itself, as being a particularly good reason to not use the second pole of the isolator for the neutral. Let's face it, an electrician prone to 'connecting cross polarity' can just as easily do it in the CU as at the output of the isolator!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[SimonH2]

On an existing installation like that the meter board would have been pre-wired which we did for a time.
They would come equiped with cut-out, meter & isolator ready to fit in a cabinet or on a wall.

At the risk of forking the thread, as I understand it, everything on that board is the DNO's and the end user (or his electrician) isn't allowed to touch it (other than hooking up the tails to the terminals).

What is the situation if the user were to move the whole board within the reach of the existing supply cable ? Eg, meter is in box on outside with cable coming from underground. User digs down far enough to be able to take a few blocks out of the wall, pass the whole assembly through the hole into the basement, put the blocks back, remount the board, and hook the CU tails back up. The supply cable just comes along underground and then sideways through the wall instead of up into the fugly box.