downlighters

[lmk]

Having the house rewired. Having spotlights in kitchen. 10 in total. Electrician wants to put in:-

Transformers: aurora AU-E60, premium range, 10 year guarantee,
dimmable electronic.

Down lighters: will either be micromark or aurora Depending what is in
stock at the time or purchase.

They will be 50w down lighters, MM72104

Questions:
1.Are these reliable? Read a lot about downlights blowing/failing and driving people almost insane.

2. Are they noisy?

3. 50w Too bright?

3. Do you think I should opt for mains connected downlights instead?


What say you all?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Having spotlights in kitchen.

That is your first, and hugest mistake.

1.Are these reliable?

No.

And particularly no when you consider that there are alternatives with lamps that will last 20-30 years.

2. Are they noisy?

Not per se, but dimming might make them noisy, or you might get noise from the dimmers

3. 50w Too bright?

Imagine the room with 5 100W pendant lights, or 8 or 9 5' fluorescent tubes.

How bright would that be?

Do you think your 10 downlighters would be more, or less bright, and do a better, or worse job, of actually illuminating the room?

If you think less and worse (and I can't imagine who wouldn't) then hopefully you'll start to see why this type of lighting is fundamentally wrong, and it doesn't matter if the lamps are mains or ELV - they burn a ridiculous number of watts for a very poor result.

3. Do you think I should opt for mains connected downlights instead?

No - I think you should opt for larger luminaires using compact fluorescent lamps. They can still be dimmable, they can still be recessed, but you won't need 500W worth.

Also - what's above the kitchen ceiling? Will you even be allowed to cut holes in the ceiling?

 

[lmk]

Thanks for the reply.

The whole ceiling is coming down and being replaced. Above the ceiling is a bedroom.

I am keen to have spotlights for purely aesthetic reasons.

We are having traditional pendants everywhere else.

Would mains connected spotlights give greater reliability than ones with transformers?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am only interested in what my lights look like. I do not care one iota about whether they are a sensible choice, and I am not interested in hearing any advice which conflicts with the stupid decision I have already made.

Would mains connected spotlights give greater reliability than ones with transformers?

Would a Toyota Landcruiser Amazon be more suitable and more economical for driving round a city centre than a Lincoln Navigator?

 

[bernardgreen]

Spot lights as the only lighting in a working kitchen..... No way,

They are fine for apearance but not much good for working under, so if you use the kitchen for cooking then think again, if it is only used to re-heat ready meals then you will manage with spot lights

 

[lmk]

Forget about it.

Bernard, I don't have the time to deal with your silly quips. If I want those sorts of comments then I'd pick a fight with my 7 year old son. He's full of one liners very similar to yours, but in his case they are age appropriate.

Over and out.

 

[spongobongo]

lmk, let me give you the benefit of my experience.

There's a lot of truth in what ban says, so don't be so dismissive of the postings on here.

I had eight 50w halogen downlights installed when I had a kitchen refit two years ago. I also intended to install lights under the cupboards, but the light is so good in the kitchen that I didn't bother.

You can easily work in a kitchen using only downlights, regardless of what Bernard says. However, I've found that the GU10s blow on a frustratingly regular basis and there does not appear to be any difference in quality between expensive and inexpensive brands - they all blow.

At the moment, I'm experimenting with 11W warm white Megaman CFLs. They take a couple of minutes to warm up from cold, but then give (in my opinion) a nicer light to work under. The upshot is that I can light my kitchen using 88W instead of 400W. The downside is that the CFLs cost around £8 each.

But the main point of my post is to back up ban's hatred of downlights. With the benefit of hindsight, I would have steered away from GU10s or any other halogen lights and gone for something a bit more environmentally (not to mention bank balance) friendly.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Assuming you mean any form of recessed luminaire I don't hate downlights - I have them in my house and I'm going to be installing more.

What I don't like, would never fit, and don't think anybody should ever fit, are those small luminaires which take MR16-sized lamps.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Assuming you mean any form of recessed luminaire I don't hate downlights - I have them in my house and I'm going to be installing more.

What I don't like, would never fit, and don't think anybody should ever fit, are those small luminaires which take MR16-sized lamps.

 

[RF Lighting]

I'd definatly second what your electrician recommends.

I've got loads of downlights in my bathroom. At the time of installation I spent a bit extra on quality lamps and transformers.

They have been in for perhaps 8 years now, and I am yet to have even a lamp fail.

I personally don't like GU10s. IMO the light they produce is inferior to MR16 lamps, and they seem to last no where near as long.

Are you planning on having these lights on a dimmer switch? If so, look for one with a soft start facility. This will hugely increase your lamp life.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'd definatly second what your electrician recommends.

He's recommending small recessed downlighters - he is highly suspect.

I personally don't like GU10s. IMO the light they produce is inferior to MR16 lamps, and they seem to last no where near as long.

The two are not related. It is not a case of either them being the same, or being different - the terms apply to different parts of the lamp. It's like saying that a GLS lamp must have a BC base, and a lamp with a BC base must be a GLS and one with an ES base cannot be.

A lamp may be a GU10 MR16 or not.

A lamp with a GU10 base may have an MR16 envelope, or it may not.

A lamp with an MR16 envelope may have a GU10 base, or it may not.

There is no correlation between GU10 and MR16, or vice-versa.

 

[ColJack]

Imagine the room with 5 100W pendant lights, or 8 or 9 5' fluorescent tubes.

if we're picking faults BAS, lets try this one too...

for a start, the wattage of a light source is not directly proportional with the lumens it puts out.

secondly the light from a pendant lamp and fluorescent tubes is omni-directional* whereas the light from a downlighter is directional with a limited beam spread based on the shape of the reflector and sometimes on the design of the downlighter itself.

* or as near as damn it, there is a "blind spot" created by the base of the lamp or by the ends of the tube where they connect to the fitting

the design of fluorescents and regular lamps means that light is reflected from surfaces such as the ceiling and walls which minimise these "blind spots" and provide a more even light..

 

[bernardgreen]

Bernard, I don't have the time to deal with your silly quips.
~~
I am keen to have spotlights for purely aesthetic reasons.

You asked for comment. Please don't be rude when offered constructive critique of your ideas from people with experience of the matter.

The "silly quip" was based on the experience of a neighbour who went all aesthetic with lighting in their new kitchen. After a couple of weeks they added diffused lights to make it a more more pleasant place to work in.

Without a proper design of lights in relation to working surfaces it is not uncommon to discover too late that one is working in one's own shadow.

Spot sources of light in the wrong place can reflect from shiny surfaces such as saucepan lids and even water in the bowl and these bright spots in the eye can be uncomfortable.

 

[securespark]

lmk. Ignoring Ban's argument for the moment, what Bernard is saying is that for a kitchen, these spotlights are not at all efficient at task lighting.

They light a very small area and the spread is not good. So, for mood lighting, OK, but to work under? No.

Ban's argument is sound (did I really say that?! ): lighting can be a precarious balance of aesthetics, cost (both to install and run) and efficacy.

For my money, in kitchens, I like good old-fashioned fluorescent lighting, in my case 2x HF 6' singles.

As for the argument of whether to choose LV or SELV, I would side with RF.

When SELV lighting was in its infancy, I installed a shed-load in my Mother's kitchen. It is a large room (15' x 24') so we realised we needed loads of fittings to give the required light output.

I used Thorn open lamps (where are they now?) and IPL transformers (the tubular type). Many of the original lamps are still going, although the reflective coating is now flaking off and only yesterday I was told a transformer had failed - the first one to do so since installation.

When did I do it? 1991.

But I would not trust today's equipment. It is far less reliable! The best of the bunch to my mind are the Osram Halotronic transformers, but even these are not as reliable as the IPL's I fitted 18 years ago.

Maybe RF will disagree about reliability...

 

[bernardgreen]

When did I do it? 1991. But I would not trust today's equipment. It is far less reliable!

Certainly the modern mass produced equipment is less reliable, cost cutting compromised the design and then poor quality control ( if any at all ) at the minimum wage offshore factory adds to the problems.