Ealing council smoking police

[opps]

Might be like a parking fine. £150 but reduced to £75 if paid within 28 days?

Parking fines (PCNs) issued by councils are reduced if paid in a given time period. The accused has the option of independent arbitration. The only way to contest a litter FPN is in court. There are no discounts for early payment and if you lose in court you now have criminal record which may impact your employment.

 

[opps]

I agree that littering should be punished. But the little Hitlers are supposed to ask you nicely to pick it up first before heading to fineville.

They are not legally obliged to ask you to pick it up

What if you genuinely dropped something, like went into your pocket for some sweets and accidentally pulled out a tissue that fell to the floor?

If a tenner fell out of your back pocket whilst walking down the street, technically, you have littered and would be subject to a £150 "fine".

The 1990 Enviromental Act and 2005 Cleaner Neighbourhoods Act adopted a scattergun approach to policing litter. Whilst well intentioned, I don't think that DEFRA imagined a system where private companies would interpret the law in the strictest sense in the aim of making money.

 

[mattylad]

IF they called her over then that was them ensuring that she walked away from it.

Most pubs usually have an ash tray on the wall.

 

[opps]

I have no problem with this really, if it was littering, and not just smoking. There is never a reason to drop litter. Take it home, and if you don't like that, don't create any litter in the first place.

But ... was this on public land or pub land? If pub, then their rules should be clearly displayed but it would be nothing to do with the police (afaik), and if public, then not a private security matter? Although ...

According to Keep Britain Tidy:

"People who drop litter can be fined or face prosecution in court. Authorised officers have the power to issue a fixed penalty charge of up to £80 for a litter offence, as an alternative to prosecution. If the offender is prosecuted and convicted in court, the fine could rise to £2,500."
https://www.keepbritaintidy.org/faqs/advice/litter-and-law#:~:text=Dropping litter is illegal.,could rise to £2,500.

But, who are "Authorised officers"?

The pub has no outdoor seating area so it was on the public highway. The law makes no distinction between private and public land (it is pretty much any open space, eg pub garden, a train station entrance and so on). Prior to 1990, if an environmental officer witnessed someone dropping litter on private land they were powerless to act unless they were able to confirm that the land owner objected to the dropping of litter on their land.

 

[opps]

I know someone who did this is as a job. Apparently they have to get you to admit to littering, the admission is caught on body cam, before they can issue the fine

E.g. "Excuse, I saw you just drop that, can you pick it up?" as a starter

If you refuse to engage they're not able to do owt, or so I was told.

They don't need any evidence. It is your word against theirs. Obviously, video footage would strengthen their case. I suspect that in many cases they simply pretend that they had the camera on when the accused littered. I do not think it a coincidence that there is no LED on their cameras to let you know when they are recording you.

They have no powers of arrest but it is an offence to fail to provide them with your name and address. You are not legally required to show them proof but they give you the impression that you have to. Once you have shown them your bank card (etc) they have less need to run a database search.

I know someone that was followed by them, upstairs, on to a double decker bus. They (illegally) refused to let the bus leave until the guy got off. He said that everyone else on the bus was swearing at him because of the delay, and so he complied. He genuinely could not recall if he had been smoking in the bus queue or not. As a radiographer, subject to CRB checks he decided not to contest the FPN. From memory, there used to be a bin at the bus stop prior to Ealing Council awarding the contract to Kingdom Security.

 

[opps]

I hate the mess smokers make, and the disgusting smell they make, and how the filthy bastards think it is their god-given right to drop their dimps on the spot wherever they are. Therefore I am in agreement with the fine (if the girl was guilty that is).

Of course, it shouldn't be a private company, probably run by criminal types, enforcing this, but the police.

Also, the original poster fancied the girl and thought himself her saviour.

I didn't fancy her. I just wanted to let her know what her legal rights are. It is not an offence me to tell someone that they are not legally required to show ID. The two litter "police" had no legal grounds for threatening to have me arrested for talking to her and her boyfriend.

 

[BlueLoo]

I ****ing detest people who litter.

Must be my grumpy old man creeping up on me.

I ****ing hate McD for the litter they cause as well. ******s.

The youth are the worst. God knows what they are being taught in schools these days.

 

[opps]

As for making society a better place, it would help if the money-grabbing councils and enforcement officers played by the rules. You can bet your boots that the vast majority of people asked to pick up what they have just dropped or face a fine will do so.

Back in the days when the fines were £80, Panorama discovered that for every £80, £60 went to Kingdom and the other £20 to ealing council. The "environmental officers" received £7 from each FPN issued (after the first two issued each day). That structure means that they have zero incentive in issuing warnings.

 

[crystal ball]

I ****ing detest people who litter.

Must be my grumpy old man creeping up on me.

I ****ing hate McD for the litter they cause as well. ******s.

The youth are the worst. God knows what they are being taught in schools these days.

What litter do McD cause?

 

[BlueLoo]

What litter do McD cause?

None, directly. Obviously (this what you are getting at?)

Indirectly, huge amounts.

 

[opps]

better if they concentrated their efforts on the filthy dog owners who can’t be bothered to pick their filthy dog filth up off the pavement or worse let them stroll around fake oblivious to the filth it’s creating.

These firms only want to focus on high volume areas such as Ealing Broadway station where a lack of bins means that smokers in bus queues are likely to drop cigarette butts.

Ealing has a population of 331,000 people and spans 55.53 km². Once every blue moon you will see them strolling along quiet residential roads. About three years ago they, whilst ambling along the residential streets they issued numerous FPN to people that could not cram all of their Christmas recycling in to their recycling bins and left it, on the day of collection, next to their wheelie bins. After a local newspaper covered the story Ealing overturned those FPNs.

From time to time they will walk through Warpole park and fine little old ladies for feeding ducks. DEFRA's guidance to environmental officers specifically says please don't fine little old ladies for feeding ducks because it makes a mockery of the law.

 

[crystal ball]

None, directly. Obviously (this what you are getting at?)

Indirectly, huge amounts.

As do many companies, why single out McD?

 

[BlueLoo]

As do many companies, why single out McD?

Where i live, the area around mcds is full of their ****. It's on the floor, on the benches, in the streams, car parks etc.
It is a mess. I spoke to the manager once about it. "Not our problem" was his curt response.

Righto. Next time you put a application in the area for a new premises or expansion, I'll be lodging an appeal.

No other company has the litter footprint of mcds.

**** em.

 

[crystal ball]

Where i live, the area around mcds is full of their ****. It's on the floor, on the benches, in the streams, car parks etc.
It is a mess. I spoke to the manager once about it. "Not our problem" was his curt response.

Righto. Next time you put a application in the area for a new premises or expansion, I'll be lodging an appeal.

No other company has the litter footprint of mcds.

**** em.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

 

[BlueLoo]

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

What claim?