Electrical Certification

[ban-all-sheds]

It seems clear to me that if I go down the fitters route his work will get certifed by his perhaps electrician, perhaps even when it shouldn't???

If they both work for the same company, and the electrician is their Qualified Supervisor then what's being proposed is not irregular. How satisfactory it is for people to sign off work that they haven't "supervised" in any meaningful way is another matter...

What are the ramifications of not getting the electric work certified?

You might have problems when you come to sell the house - basically you'll have had work done which requires Building Regulations approval, and no proof that it was done properly.

 

[zand108]

You might have problems when you come to sell the house - basically you'll have had work done which requires Building Regulations approval, and no proof that it was done properly.

Making the resale of the property more lengthy and potentially more expensive seems like a very good reason for getting the work certified.

I don't know that the fitter's electrician is a qualified supervisor I will ask about that when I ask about the organisation that the electrician is registered with.

I think the best course of action is to push ahead with certification regardless of who eventually foots the £200.00 cost. In the meantime i'll get an independant electrician to come in and give me an idea of the quality of the fitters work.

The fitter and his crew have asked for tommorow off so i'll get the independent electrician to come round then.

 

[Spark123]

Him wanting £200 extra and for his QS to come around just doesn't sound right to me!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't know that the fitter's electrician is a qualified supervisor I will ask about that when I ask about the organisation that the electrician is registered with.

Qualified Supervisor is a job role/description, not an actual qualification. A self-employed registered electrician has exactly the same qualification requirements as does an employed one whose job is to be the QS for his employer.

The way that electrical installation businesses of any size usually work is that they have qualified supervisors who supervise and direct the work of unqualified/inexperienced workers - traditionally I guess these would have been apprentices and improvers. Provided the supervisor is actively involved there's nothing really wrong with this, and he can effectively look after the work done by several people. With Building Regulations certification it is the firm that is registered, and the firm that certifies the work, because it is all done by the firm.

In this case though it sounds like he's not been involved, and worryingly there was never any plan for him to be involved, hence the extra £200.

And if the electrician does not employ the kitchen fitter, or if they aren't both employees of the same firm, then it really is stretching things for him to claim the role of Qualified Supervisor.

 

[zand108]

Him wanting £200 extra and for his QS to come around just doesn't sound right to me!

I completely agree and I will fight him on this tooth and nail. But at the end of the day I need the work certified and no other electrician will do that without having done the work themselves. I am in a bind and at his mercy and he is probably well aware of that.

Qualified Supervisor is a job role/description, not an actual qualification. A self-employed registered electrician has exactly the same qualification requirements as does an employed one whose job is to be the QS for his employer.

The way that electrical installation businesses of any size usually work is that they have qualified supervisors who supervise and direct the work of unqualified/inexperienced workers - traditionally I guess these would have been apprentices and improvers. Provided the supervisor is actively involved there's nothing really wrong with this, and he can effectively look after the work done by several people. With Building Regulations certification it is the firm that is registered, and the firm that certifies the work, because it is all done by the firm.

In this case though it sounds like he's not been involved, and worryingly there was never any plan for him to be involved, hence the extra £200.

And if the electrician does not employ the kitchen fitter, or if they aren't both employees of the same firm, then it really is stretching things for him to claim the role of Qualified Supervisor.

I don't think either works for the other hearing them converse on the phone it sounds much more like the electrician is just some guy that the fitter happens to know.

 

[industryspark]

You are not at his mercy at all.

Inform him that doing electrical work as he has and not certfifying/notifying is illegal and withhold the payment for the kitchen. he hasnt got a leg to stand on and he knows it, inform him that if all work isnt done legally and as it should then you will not be paying and also will be going to trading standards.

certainly dont give this muppet another 200 quid, he's trying it on.

 

[zand108]

Ok,

Did a Yellow Pages search and have spoken with an electrician round the corner (Never knew there were so many in my area 3 alone on opposite ends of my own street ) who has agreed to come round tommorow when the fitter and his crew are off to make an inspection of the work done so far for the cost of a call-out which for him is £60.00.

Unfortunately while I have been at work the fitter has plastered boarded up the walls wasn't supposed to get that far until thursday (his electric work might be shoddy but he kitchen fits like something fierce ) and has started painting them (which we shall be having words about come friday, I distinctly told him to skim them ).

I havn't seen it myself yet, but from what I have been told the only visible parts of the electrics are the wires at (but not connected to) the consumer unit and the wires hanging out of the boxes where the appliance sockets and the overcounter fused switches are going to go. So now I wonder is there any use in getting the electrician round tommorow will he be able to tell anything since most of it is now behind plasterboard walls

 

[ban-all-sheds]

And if you can find out the name and registration details of this electrician, report him to his scheme organiser, for he is also breaking the law by doing this.

In theory the two of them are also guilty of conspiracy.

 

[pompeygit]

BAS is right control the purse strings carefully....if u pay him up on completion of his work......all bets are off and you wont get a cert. Remember money is power

 

[zand108]

Sorry to repeat myself but how much information can be gleaned about the quality of an installation with only access to wires hanging out of walls and above the consumer unit.

I feel as though having the independent electrician rip out the plasterboard walls to check behind them is a very drastic step (should he feel the need to) and I am actually nervous about what the fitters reaction would be if he did that, silly huh .

BAS is right control the purse strings carefully....if u pay him up on completion of his work......all bets are off and you wont get a cert. Remember money is power

On completion of the work, How long does the certification process usually take?

 

[industryspark]

the certification process takes no time at all.... the electrician should be able to get a good idea of the install what the kitchen guy has done by looking inside sockets and the like, he wont be able to fully confirm cables runs are in safe zones. i wouldnt rip out anything the kitchen fitters done as he will likelly have a claim against you then or at least make you look bad.

 

[pompeygit]

Depends how quick he is at filling them in. I always use the council........present my copy of certs to client on last day, post the councils copy same day, and customer normally waits 7-14days for Compliance certificate from council. Don't know the deal with sparks who are registered with Nic, Napit etc but would think similar. I personally would hold a sum back of about £300 until you receive council cert. I would explain this to the company involved....this is your insurance that you will receive a cert......After all if they are not going to cert then they are breaking the law.

I think unless you take a drastic stance you are unlikely to get a cert(the 1 from the council that is)

 

[luminaire]

Whilst you've got the opportunity tomorrow I would find out from your local council your nearest Trading Standards office and find out exactly where you stand legally. That's what the're there for.

Alternatively; you could give Consumer Direct a ring and get advice from them. Their tel no is: 08454 04 05 06.

It's in your own interests to find out where you stand with these people.
Best of luck.

 

[zand108]

An update!!

I had the independent electrician in, he looked at the wiring and from what he could he see it looked like it was done alright (but he stressed that without knowing what was going on behind the walls he couldn't be positive).

One thing he did not like was the way the cable was run from the consumer unit to the kitchen. He thought it would have been better if the fitter had run the cable under the floorboards as opposed to down the walls as somebody putting nail into the walls might accidently electrocute themselves. Does this pose enough of a danger to ask him to change it???

I will be putting a call into trading standards as suggested by luminaire to see where I stand. But I really can't see how either I or LABC can be completely satisfied until I have had all the cabling pulled and redone by another electrician who can self-certify or the work overseen by somebody from LABC!!![/b]

 

[ebee]

If he has covered the cable runs and his "Qualifying Supervisor" has not yet attended to view such cable runs then how on earth can he sign it off as complying with the Building Regs and the Wiring Regs? He can`t .

If the installation is in England or Wales (Scotland is slightly different) then Local Authority Building Control must be notified in one of two ways

1/ Give 2 working days notice and pay a fee before commencement and allow the LABC to inspect/test as they may wish both during the works and upon completion of the works

or

2/ Use a Registered Domestic Installer (registered with one of the 5 schemes) who will do the works, give you an Electrical Installation Certificate upon completion AND notify both LABC & Yourself via such scheme provider within 28 days of completion.

That is a legal requirement, it is not voluntary it is compulsory so how can he now want an extra fee to comply with a something that has been law since Jan 1st 2005 ?

Ban & and the others are giving you excellent advice.

A Registered Domestic Installer may be a one man band who is his own qualifying supervisor or alternatively a firm might have a few "electricians" and one or more of them might be qualifying supervisors for the firm. If so that means they must supervise the works at all stages including viewing cable runs before they are covered up.


Just to clarify, I am a Registered Domestic Installer (I supervise myself and one part time employee).

I don`t usually encourage folk to withold payment from a contractor for no good reason (i wouldn`t like that done to me) , however I feel you are getting the runaround.
I suggest you withold (his quoted amount) £200 until you receive BOTH an Electrical Installation Certificate and notification of compliance with building regs from a scheme provider or LABC. 28 days is not that long to wait!

Or you might want to seek advice from LABC and Trading Standards whilst the job is in progress, no geniune firm would be offended.