EV are they worth it?

[Avocet]

I note Cardiff are returning to diesel bin wagons as they don't have the power in the network to charge the electric ones, so it seems we will need to continue with diesel for some time yet. It is all well and good saying we can turn off the EV charging points remotely if there is a shortage of power, but only if official EV points fitted, and then what do the EV owners do?

It will be like when there is a water shortage, and you can't wash your car at home, but you can take it to a car wash, but it costs you more.

I think you just answered your own question? They just have to do what ICE drivers have been doing for 100 years, and drive to a public filling (or in their case, charging) station!

 

[IT Minion]

Battery swaps are interesting, but you run into the logistics of actually doing a swap and queuing for the swap station. It can quite quickly become less convenient than charging as normal.

Removing batteries from a crashed car isn't going to happen. Even without damage that needs big lifting gear, specialist training and facilities/equipment. With crash damage it may be utterly impractical. Guidance at the moment specifies extra handling rules for crashed EVs.

 

[IT Minion]

I note Cardiff are returning to diesel bin wagons as they don't have the power in the network to charge the electric ones, so it seems we will need to continue with diesel for some time yet. It is all well and good saying we can turn off the EV charging points remotely if there is a shortage of power, but only if official EV points fitted, and then what do the EV owners do?

It will be like when there is a water shortage, and you can't wash your car at home, but you can take it to a car wash, but it costs you more.

If it's the story I just Googled, it's defective chargers not grid capacity that's the issue?

They added: "The council has infrastructure at Lamby Way Depot to charge electric vehicles. This equipment charges the smaller vehicles without any issue, but a software problem between these electric chargers and the new electric Dennis Eagle RCV vehicles, causes the system to ‘trip’.

Cardiff Council using diesel generators to charge electric bin lorries

The council has said it's a temporary measure to mitigate a fault between its new vehicles and electric chargers

www.walesonline.co.uk

And what would you do if there's a power cut? Reduce usage and break out the emergency generators.

Aha, it isn't. It's this story

Cardiff council considers diesel bin lorries over grid concerns

Cardiff council says there is insufficient capacity in the grid to use more electric lorries.

news-yahoo-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Avocet]

Another thing that need to be considered is a way to quickly remove the battery from a crashed car.

Not necessary if all the occupants are out of the car, let it burn as water and CO2 are not effective fighting lithium fires.

But if there are people trapped in the car the Fire brigade have to face the risk of the battery self igniting due to damage in the crash ( if not already overheating / burning )

I'm not sure that's an issue, in reality? Nobody takes the fuel tank out of a burning ICE vehicle. They concentrate on getting the people out. And yet ICE vehicles (I'm fairly certain) ignite and burn much faster than EVs. EV fires take quite a while to establish and propagate (in fact, the bloody things burn for ages, compare to ICEVs)! If anything, getting the people out quick enough, is a bigger problem in ICEs, I'd have thought?

 

[Avocet]

I agree and said as much in 2017

Petrol/Diesel ban from 2040

No appology necessary Judy, that's what the GD should be about, updating everyones knowledge. I think there was a scheme to give you a free charge point, but not any more; although I suspect it's something you can negotiate with a new car. Charging at home is damned cheap, and I think they'll...

www.diynot.com

If anything, as time has progressed, I've changed my position on this, and now consider it a dead end. The first drawback, is that forcing everyone to use the same, standardised battery packs, stifles innovation. We desperately need more of that! Secondly, having the same battery pack in everything, would result in some incredibly big and heavy city cars, if they had to lug a battery big enough for an SUV around with them. (But my word, they'd have some range)!

Another problem is that the battery is so big and heavy, that it is usually part of the vehicle structure. Really hard to develop a "one size fits all" solution there. And of course, economically, if the "fuel" company owns the batteries, you can rest assured that they will make a profit on them. So we will either end up paying a monthly leasing fee, or we'll end up paying a lot more for the electricity.

Nio has gone down the road of swappable batteries, and they're building swap stations, but however bad you might think the existing EV charging infrastructure is, it's light years ahead of the rollout of battery swap stations! Even then, the battery swap time is still 6 or 7 minutes. On the fastest chargers currently available, I can get the best part of 100 miles into mine, in that time. Sure, the charge rate drops off dramatically as the battery gets closer to being full, so the next 6 or 7 minutes won't get me anything like that much additional range, but the time difference isn't so great, that I'd be willing to drive to a swap station (and then possibly queue to use it). As battery (and charger) technology develops, I can see that difference being narrowed still further.

 

[bernardgreen]

EV fires take quite a while to establish

I am in contact with a retired fire safety officer, He has knowledge of the failure mode of lithium batteries. They can self destruct, sometimes explosively, within seconds of the first sign of a problem.

 

[IT Minion]

I am in contact with a retired fire safety officer, He has knowledge of the failure mode of lithium batteries. They can self destruct, sometimes explosively, within seconds of the first sign of a problem.

There is a lot more fire protection in EV batteries than in phones or vape pens. The normal trend is for them to take a while to establish, then burn enthusiastically. Plus it doesn't happen very often.

I'm not sure if lithium iron batteries burn well, they're massively more tolerant of damage.

 

[Avocet]

I am in contact with a retired fire safety officer, He has knowledge of the failure mode of lithium batteries. They can self destruct, sometimes explosively, within seconds of the first sign of a problem.

Ask him how often he's actually seen that happen. My feeling is that it's incredibly rare, and I think probably quite a bit rarer than ICE vehicles exploding. There are various videos online of EVs "exploding", but most (if not all) the ones I've seen so far, have been fakes - either they've been ICE cars (usually with dodgy LPG conversions) or they've been cars that have had something like a camping gas cylinder in the back, which has exploded.

You certainly get li-ion battery fires - but many of those are not cars, they're dodgy cheap Chinese e-bikes and scooters. a mainstream car in the EU, is subject to pretty tough type approval regulations (one of the tests is standing the battery over a pool of burning petrol for several minutes, in fact).

I think EV fires are less common than ICE fires, and that whilst they're a bugger to put out, and can burn for a long time, they're quite a bit less likely to "explode", as such. You tend to get the safety valves on the cells opening and venting gas, when they get way too hot - and if there's already a source of ignition nearby, the jet of gas can ignite, so you get a jet of flame until the pressure dies down, but that's about it?

 

[Nail In]

I watched Channel 5 yesterday on when to buy an EV car, they were saying some time in the future we will all need to buy an EV, but when.

The problem is interesting as it pointed out the problem of finding a charging point which worked, since I still use cash, it seems I can't use one. One has to have a bank account and a card payment system to drive an EV car.

Charge time was also of interest, he plugged in where parking limited to one hour, so need a car which can recharge in less than an hour, or at least get enough power to get to next charge point.

It seems there is a range of charge rates, which not only depend on the recharging point, but also the car, 2.2kW granny charger, 3.5 kW early EV's, 7 kW most EV's today, 22 kW only cars which can take a three phase supply, many only charge at 7 kW even on a 22 kW charge point, DC charging or fast charging as it seems to be called, only available with some cars, if you can find a charging station.

The low charge rate means charge points can already be full.

As to home charging it seems some councils will fit gullies for the cable, so not a trip hazard, but be it at an EV charge point or home unlike filling with liquid fuel often no one in attendance to point out trip hazards.

Most local trips I can use public transport, when we NEED the car rather than select it because it is handy is the long trip, so even if only 1 or 2 long trips per year, they are the important ones, hospital is 25 miles away, so minimum distance is 50 mile, I have needed to go 40 miles to hospitals which specialise, so really 80 miles, also 70 miles return to where rest of family lives, so if not able to do 100 miles then a non starter, and I mean 100 miles with heater on etc, not shivering all the way to save electric.

There are clearly cars which can do the job, but last car cost me £6,000 and that is what I want to spend on a car, not after the lap of luxury, getting A to B and back is what I want, so 10 years old is fine.

I would say 20 years maximum life, once I am 90 not really going to want to drive, mileage around 6000 per annum likely less.

In the UK it says 2050 when we need to buy a new car

 

[bernardgreen]

I think EV fires are less common than ICE fires

From Bedforshire Fire and Rescue

How often do they occur?

Although these fires do present a real danger, fortunately for us they remain very rare.
Data obtained by Air Quality News through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request revealed that in 2019 the London Fire Brigade dealt with just 54 electric vehicle fires compared to 1,898 petrol and diesel fires.
Although these fires remain rare, when they do occur, they can be extremely dangerous.
During an electric vehicle fire, over 100 organic chemicals are generated, including some incredibly toxic gases such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide – both of which are fatal to humans.
More information here

Data reveals extent of electric vehicle fires around the UK

Unique data gained by CE Safety has revealed a dramatic increase in fires caused by electric vehicle batteries.

cesafety.co.uk

 

[IT Minion]

From Bedforshire Fire and Rescue

How often do they occur?

Although these fires do present a real danger, fortunately for us they remain very rare.
Data obtained by Air Quality News through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request revealed that in 2019 the London Fire Brigade dealt with just 54 electric vehicle fires compared to 1,898 petrol and diesel fires.
Although these fires remain rare, when they do occur, they can be extremely dangerous.
During an electric vehicle fire, over 100 organic chemicals are generated, including some incredibly toxic gases such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide – both of which are fatal to humans.
More information here

Data reveals extent of electric vehicle fires around the UK

Unique data gained by CE Safety has revealed a dramatic increase in fires caused by electric vehicle batteries.

cesafety.co.uk

It's tricky to get meaningful stats on this.

We'd need to know the number of EVs (and presumably hybrids?) on the road to ICEs in 2019, which isn't trivial. Then there's complicating factors, the EVs should be newer so comparable ICEs are presumably less likely to be on fire.

I dont think there has been much EV vandalism but it isn't unknown.

 

[Avocet]

From Bedforshire Fire and Rescue

How often do they occur?

Although these fires do present a real danger, fortunately for us they remain very rare.
Data obtained by Air Quality News through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request revealed that in 2019 the London Fire Brigade dealt with just 54 electric vehicle fires compared to 1,898 petrol and diesel fires.
Although these fires remain rare, when they do occur, they can be extremely dangerous.
During an electric vehicle fire, over 100 organic chemicals are generated, including some incredibly toxic gases such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide – both of which are fatal to humans.
More information here

Data reveals extent of electric vehicle fires around the UK

Unique data gained by CE Safety has revealed a dramatic increase in fires caused by electric vehicle batteries.

cesafety.co.uk

Yes, I got a bit of a shock on the numbers in that report, but then saw the tables further down, and noticed that they're counting scooters, e-bikes, mobility scooters, etc as "vehicles", as well as mainstream cars!

So, less than half of those electric "vehicle" fires they mention, are actually electric cars - which is broadly in line with other figures I've seen bandied about. And yes, the fumes are dangerous, but let's face it, the fumes from an ICE vehicle fire aren't exactly good for you, either!

 

[Avocet]

It's tricky to get meaningful stats on this.

We'd need to know the number of EVs (and presumably hybrids?) on the road to ICEs in 2019, which isn't trivial. Then there's complicating factors, the EVs should be newer so comparable ICEs are presumably less likely to be on fire.

I dont think there has been much EV vandalism but it isn't unknown.

That bit about the cars being newer, is very important. I've seen a few American studies that show ICE vehicles anywhere between 50 and 100 times more likely to set themselves on fire than EVs, but a fair number of those will be old, poorly-maintained "sheds", as you say, simply because they've been around longer.

 

[robinbanks]

Another thing that need to be considered is a way to quickly remove the battery from a crashed car.

Because petrol vehicles have a fuel tank ejector button?

 

[johnny2007]

Because petrol vehicles have a fuel tank ejector button?

Of course, it's called a match.
You light it and drop it into your tank which is ejected almost immediately...