Gas Safety Certificate - confusion

[robertasparrow]

First of all, I just want to say that I'm not trying to get out of my obligations as a landlord. I just want to ensure I'm not being misled.

I'm an absent landlord, temporarily overseas, and have a tenant in what was my home.

I've had a Gas Safety Cert done the last 2 years with no problems, all passes.

This year I used a different gas man and I'm a bit confused about what he's telling me.

Firstly, he put a FAIL against the 'equipotential bonding satisfactory' question and has made a note: 'no earth bonding advised'. I haven't been advised of anything and he hasn't mentioned or suggest I do anything about this in any of our email correspondence.

The gas main IS earth bonded as it comes into the house. The gas meter is right outside the front door on the kitchen wall and you can see the earth bonding under the kitchen cupboards in that exact spot. He won't come back and recheck unless I pay him again.

Secondly, on the cooker: He has marked it a SAFE TO USE, but with an NCS (not to current standards) and put an advisory note that the plug needs moving from above the cooker to a side wall.

He is now insisting that we MUST get the plug moved as he says it's dangerous and a serious fire risk. He's supplied a 200 quid quote.

I am confused about this. I'm of the impression that an NCS just means that when the kitchen was rewired 15 years ago it was OK but it now doesn't comply with current safety requirements (and, even if I did move the socket today, new safety requirements next year might mean that it doesn't comply again, etc, etc).

Reading the Regs, it looks as if that is just advisory for me but the gas man is insisting that it's "dangerous and a serious fire risk" and that I MUST move it.

The plug socket is showing no signs of heat damage and doesn't get hot, it's been there for 15 years.

Whilst he's telling me now that it's dangerous, etc, he has marked it as 'safe to use' on the form so I don't understand why he's insisting he goes back and moves the plug.

So, I guess my questions are:-
1. Should I have expected the engineer to check where the main gas pipe was earth bonded? Is it reasonable to have at least expected him to check the pipe as it comes into the house, even if he didn't check anywhere else?
2. An item marked as NCS but passed as safe - what are my obligations as a Landlord in dealing with this?

Thankyou for any help you can provide

 

[hazetimesfive]

it can be fairly easy to miss the bonding on a gas pipe, difficult to comment as I haven't been to your house

NCS is ncs, I've only ever been asked to fix one or two in my whole life.

the certificate is not a pass, or a fail, it's only a record of the situation at the current time, defects are noted, serious defects are recorded both on the certificate and an advice notice in duplicate, dangerous appliances are turned off or disconnected and a big red sticker applied to them.

no one will force you to fix NCS or even AT RISK defects, however failing to do so and in the event of an accident resulting in damages to property or person the spotlight will fall to you as having been informed of said issues.

It is the responsibility of the gas engineer to make you aware of safety issues and the relevant level of concern applicable to each.

I cannot make an assessment of your property over the internet so you will either have to listen to the RGI or get a second opinion.

 

[Blagard]

Perhaps you should use the complaints procedure if you think he is trying to con you into work that you think is unnecessary. Bear in mind that your previous engineer may have been lax

http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/gas_complaint_form.aspx

 

[robertasparrow]

Thanks for responding.

The previous 2 certs were done by 2 different engineers. The first was done via a problematic letting agent so he probably didn't even come into the house....

Where would one expect an engineer to look, as a minimum, to check for earth bonding? What is normal practice.

I'm still confused as to how something can be dangerous and requiring immediate attention, and yet be safe to use. If the engineer has marked it as safe to use, how would the 'spotlight' fall to me? Surely it is either safe or it is not? If it is not safe and the house burns down then could I also not point out that, whilst he commented that it is NCS, he also said it was safe to use? To me, the 2 things conflict and I have no idea where I stand.

 

[hazetimesfive]

‘Not to Current Standards’ (NCS)
Over time, industry standards may change and, as a result, existing installations may not always meet the current safety requirements. A “not to current standards” installation is one which does not meet with current standards, but is safe. You may however wish to improve the installation to meet current standards as this could improve the reliability and lifespan of the installation. If the installation has been carried out recently, you should contact the registered gas business that carried out the work to correct any identified faults. For older installations your gas engineer can advise you whether the installation should be brought in line with current standards.

It is always a good idea to bring an installation up to current standards, but that will often depend upon whether the work can be undertaken at reasonable cost, or whether any other work is likely to be carried out on the installation in the near future, such as a replacement appliance.

check for earth bonding within the meter box or where it enters the property (on the inside) as a rough guide.

as you say the engineer in this situation should not be telling you the appliance is safe and dangerous at the same time, its either safe or it isn't.

typically not to current standards do not constitute a safety risk, so either he escalates the classification or gtfo.

 

[robertasparrow]

Thankyou for responding.

So, as a minimum, he should have checked where the gas comes into the property on the inside. This is where the earth bonding is so he didn't look. I will question this with him.

For my own peace of mind, I might just get it redone by someone else and tell them where the earth bonding is too.

 

[sooey]

I would just go with the certificate you already have, you can ignore the bonding NCS as you know you have it. The cooker has been classified as safe to use and the advisory notice is just that, advisory. If you know it's safe you don't have to follow the advice. This is a good pointer.

The plug socket is showing no signs of heat damage and doesn't get hot, it's been there for 15 years.

 

[robertasparrow]

The bonding isn't NCS, it's a FAIL.

Only the plug socket is NCS.

 

[sooey]

No bonding is classed as NCS only no matter what the guy has written, as you've stated that you know it is there ignore it anyway.

 

[gigz]

The bonding isn't NCS, it's a FAIL.

No its not a FAIL, its NCS. There is no pass or fail as already said. He can't say its not bonded without checking. He can note that it was inaccessible at the time, but he should have said so. To the OP, i wouldn't worry about it either way.

 

[lauriehurman]

Hi Robertasparrow

Your obligations (liability) is quite different as a landlord than those of an owner-occupier.

Basically you have a responsibility to know what the latest regs are and to keep the property up to that standard. You don't need to take my word for it. You can google from where you are and find out what you obligations are.

My suggestion (for what it's worth) is to get an electrician to do a periodic inspection report (now called an EICR) and do any work that that flags up.

Laurie

 

[boabcelt]

You may well have bonding fitted, but it may be in the wrong position. The gas regs require bonding within 600mm of the meter outlet, or before the first tee in the pipework. I believe the electrical regs have a different stipulation Either way, it is just NCS. The same goes for the socket.

 

[Agile]

You clearly have a nasty guy who wants to force you to pay him too much to do something that is not essential.

Ignore him and perhaps get someone else to do gas cert if you are concerned about the contents.

If the earth bond cannot be seen from the meter then whilst I might look around inside many RGIs would not bother! You should put a note inside the meter box about it.

Tony

 

[EFLImpudence]

The gas regs require bonding within 600mm of the meter outlet, or before the first tee in the pipework.
I believe the electrical regs have a different stipulation

Not different but that is not the whole story.

What you state is correct if the meter is inside the premises.

If the meter is outside the pipe should be bonded "At point of entry" where practicable.


I don't think the 'gas regs' would state anything other than the electrical requirements.

 

[SimonH2]

Your obligations (liability) is quite different as a landlord than those of an owner-occupier.

Basically you have a responsibility to know what the latest regs are and to keep the property up to that standard. You don't need to take my word for it.

Like to provide a reference for that ? Because the regulations do not state it.
As long as something is still "safe" then being NCS is not in breach of the regs.

However, as a landlord myself, I'd fix anything that was NCS (if practical to do so) - but mostly as a CYA thing. CYA, as in should anything happen, even if the NCS bit is nothing to do with it, it's not an opportunity for someone to try and claim that it wasn't safe. I do the same with electrics - replaced the CUs in both a couple of years ago.