House Re-Wire Plan please critique

[mattysmithuk]

Hi all I am going to be paying a sparky to do the work but I have had some really bad experience with the trades recently one scammer was trying to charge me 3k just in labor for a weekends work to fit a central heating system in an empty house 1.5k a day aint a bad living needless to say Im fitting the pipework and rads myself and having the boiler fitted for £400.

As the house is completely empty I have decided to look at the electrics currently there is one radial supplying all the sockets in the house another supplying all the lights a circuit for the central heating and another for a stairlift that is no-longer there, this goes back to what I beleive is an 80's era CU which has 4 re-wireable fuses for the above circuits.

I have had and think and thrown together a very rough diagram showing what circuits I would like installing, any cirtique would be appriciated I would like the sparky to think I know what im on about slightly and maybe then I wont get ripped off. If anyone would like to guess the price of the proposed work based on the house being empty floorboards up no power required during the works and the house being 8x5m in total floor space for each floor. I will chase walls out where required and perform the remedial work after all I need is a sparky to come in connect the CU lay the cables terminate and test all other work I can do myself.

Untitled

• mattysmithuk
• 14 Jan 2011
• 1

Without wanting to incur the rath of some of you I have grown increasingly frustrated at the "going rate" for some of the work I want doing, surely I shouldn't be able to take a course that allows me membership of a body which can notify the council on my behalf for part P for less than the cost of getting someone allready trained to do it for me!?!? and before everyone flames me saying that wont teach you buggar all you'll blow ya house up orI've seen installs by people who have been on them corses/repaired replaced them, remember 5 years ago I could of done most work myself with zero certifications and yea 9/10 you came to them kind of jobs and it was a mess and people were lucky to be alive but they probably had no training at all.

 

[wingcoax]

I think you were expecting this. You need to talk to the sparky who will be connecting up/signing off. He is the one who should do the design/notification as it will be his reputation on the line. He may let you do the donkey work i;e; cutting chasing/lifting boards and if you are lucky he may let you run some cables.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

You will need to have RCD protection for all circuits, unless they are installed using either by using mechanical protection or cables are buried at least 50mm in to walls. The 50mm is normally difficult as it could well effect the structure of your brick/blockwork in solid walls.
So it is a normal procedure to install circuits with the MCBs being protected by RCDs or the installation of RCBOs which serve the purpose of both MCB and RCD.
It seems the ring final circuits have had there day, even though still popular with some.
But Radials are much more in voge, using 4mm T&E, usually comes in cheaper on materials too.
Your kitchen installation may be better served by more than the two circuits (cooker and Ring)
You should consider circuits for Appliances (washer/dryer/dishwasher)
Above worktop sockets
and also a special circuits for your fridge and boiler, that will allow you not have RCD protection fitted ie using earthsheild cables, so to prevent nuisance tripping, so the food don't thaw and the C/H ans H/W still works.
Other than that if you are using a dual RCD split board.
Have upstairs lights and down stairs sockets on one side
and downstairs lights and upstairs sockets on the other side, given you the means of light either by the lighting circuit or plug in lamps to the socket circuit, if one side trips.
The other point would be your outside lights depending where and the route they are installed SWA cable may not be needed, but consideration most be took, but the environment is a factor.
Plus the socket outlets, you can never have enough sockets on your circuits so account for everything, TV ,DVD Player, sat/digi boxes, consoles, lamps, pc, surge protection, washer, fridge, freezer, dryer, dishwasher, kettle, microwave, toaster, george foreman grill, vacum etc...........
and also get at least 6mm even might push it to 10mm cable for your cooker, so you can always upgrade to a higher output with out having to upgrade cable.
Consideration for an electric shower or shower pump, any alarms systems.
I will have missed out a few things which will be pointed out by others.

 

[1john]

Ring final circuits are bad?

If you have a fault on your upstairs socket circuit you will have no power up there at all?

What additional provisions do you intend to make to the circuits which are not going to be protected by an RCD?

What calcs were done for thte cable sizes?

If someone gives you a quote, you dont have to accept if, this does not make them a scammer.

Dont complain about prices, you dont know what overheads the companies have.

I am sure the price of the course, insurance, membership to a scheme, tools, test equipments, van and running costs, accountant fees ( i could go on) would cost more than the price of the job.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

]
I want doing, surely I shouldn't be able to take a course that allows me membership of a body which can notify the council on my behalf for part P for less than the cost of getting someone allready trained to do it for me!?!?

Approx costs of what you propose:
Course fee £700
Tester Meter £300 S/H with calibration
Registration £450
Insurance (can't register without it) £200

So that is £1650 absolute min before you even factor in the time to take the course, do some work for the registration body to examine and learn to use your new tester. Lets say min further two weeks.

Then wait for assessment date; normally 5-6 weeks wait.

So in three months you could do what you want.

Do you have a job at the moment by the way?

Or you could start as soon as you find some electrician as suggested by wingcoax. Please reread his suggestion - as it is the easiest way to achieve what you wish to do.

It is never going to be viable to register just to do one job.

Good luck

Martin

 

[1john]

It's shameful, you had to be trading for 2 years before the NICEIC would accept you before.

Martin, you forgot about tools on your list. A first years PLI is going to be more than £200, come on fella, you should know your own running costs are going to be different from a first timer, also add up the value of your tool kit, carefully, you may be suprised!

 

[bernardgreen]

As you have two RCDs why not also put the lights on RCD but split vertically so some lights on each floor remain working after a trip.

Ensure lights in kitchen are not on the same RCD as the kitchen sockets so there is still light when a spilt kettle scolds someone and takes out the power.

 

[mbga9pgf]

As a minimum, I would be getting this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/IEE--site-G...8546/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294994890&sr=8-1

This place:

http://nihs.co.uk/?gclid=CP7qgaCouaYCFY4f4Qod_CNBIQ

do weekend hire rates, it works out at 50 quid for 2 days.

 

[riveralt]

It seems the ring final circuits have had there day, even though still popular with some.

You should design the circuit most appropriate to the customers requirements not whether you consider them popular or unpopular - RFC and radials each have their place.

But Radials are much more in voge, using 4mm T&E, usually comes in cheaper on materials too.

This is wrong and since the OP seems to be a cost conscious person inappropriate. The price of 100m of 4mm T&E cable at TLC is £93.60 while 100m of 2.5mm T&E is £55.20. Remember that historically the total floor area served by RFC is 100m^2 while for radials it is 75m^2 So given that his initial outline plan is for three RFC it is possible that he may need three or more radial circuits.

and also a special circuits for your fridge and boiler, that will allow you not have RCD protection fitted ie using earthsheild cables, so to prevent nuisance tripping, so the food don't thaw and the C/H ans H/W still works.

Where is the evidence that his happens sufficiently to justify using this type of cable and the added expense? Once again you design for the clients needs not yours.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[ajrobb]

Playing devil's advocate and definitely not an electrician:

Extending existing circuits outside of special areas is not notifiable. This leaves a spark registered with a competent person's scheme to design and install

• CU
  kitchen
  bathroom
  outside light
  one socket on each 20A radial circuit upstairs and downstairs
  possibly one light circuit for the top of the stairs and another for the bottom on separate RCDs

All the other lights and sockets should fall outside Part P as they are extensions of existing circuits outside of special areas.

Alternatively, notify the council, pay their fees and you are allowed to do the lot without training.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[ajrobb]

there will be no certification for the diy bit

I thought none was required to extend circuits away from special areas.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

It seems the ring final circuits have had there day, even though still popular with some.

You should design the circuit most appropriate to the customers requirements not whether you consider them popular or unpopular - RFC and radials each have their place.

I have no doubt they do, but radial circuits are more suitable to most peoples needs, there will be occasions when an RFC is a more suitable and logical option, I will not deny that and I always would consider the client/customers needs and where their needs can be safely and satisfactory be satisfied. Then chose the design that is most suited to that.

But Radials are much more in voge, using 4mm T&E, usually comes in cheaper on materials too.

This is wrong and since the OP seems to be a cost conscious person inappropriate. The price of 100m of 4mm T&E cable at TLC is £93.60 while 100m of 2.5mm T&E is £55.20. Remember that historically the total floor area served by RFC is 100m^2 while for radials it is 75m^2 So given that his initial outline plan is for three RFC it is possible that he may need three or more radial circuits.

Well if we look that in liner metres, if you say for an easy example where running a circuit that was 10M in total length.
RFC in 2.5T&[email protected] PM x10x2 equals in total £11.04
Radial in 4.00T&[email protected] PM x 10 equals in total £9.36
and cheaper even still for an A3 circuit.

and also a special circuits for your fridge and boiler, that will allow you not have RCD protection fitted ie using earthsheild cables, so to prevent nuisance tripping, so the food don't thaw and the C/H ans H/W still works.

Where is the evidence that his happens sufficiently to justify using this type of cable and the added expense? Once again you design for the clients needs not yours.

I can't other stone wall evidence but what I can offer is an example of what happened to a friend of mine, that went on holiday for two weeks and had over £200 of frozen meat and fish in their freezer and the RCD tripped out whilst they were away, low and behold the freezer was connected to it, £200 in the bin.
and another example boiler trips out whilst away at Christmas, boiler was set on frost, upstairs pipes burst during big freeze(it's a shame the meat and fish were not in the same place). Loads of water damage, needs plasterer, painter,and plumber for starters.
So I would suggest in the long run a the this being possible that it is worth the extra cost.