House Re-Wire Plan please critique

[mattysmithuk]

Thanks for the replies the response to this has been great! Can I clarify one thing though, I have read that you should have your sockets protected by an RCD but that your Lights should be on a non-protected side of the CU is this out of date information? also in an ideal world wouldn't you want each circuit to trip on its own rather than tripping in groups when the RCD trips for that section of the CU? From what I have read RCBO's offer this kind of flexibility could you populate a CU with only RCBO's ? Also what kind of CU and setup would you recommend for the orginal circuit diagram with the addition of a seperate circuit for the Boiler and the Fridge freezer?

Also what I have not mentioned is that I currently have an alarm which is spured from a spur and I would like to change this obviously should this be fed by its own circuit as well or do I need to to just make the orginal spur a fused spur and leave it as is? Finally I have also heard people mentioning hardwiring of smoke alarms being a requirement is this true?

 

[riveralt]

Thanks for the replies the response to this has been great! Can I clarify one thing though, I have read that you should have your sockets protected by an RCD

not necesarily.

but that your Lights should be on a non-protected side of the CU is this out of date information?

Not necessarily

also in an ideal world wouldn't you want each circuit to trip on its own rather than tripping in groups when the RCD trips for that section of the CU?

Not necessarily

From what I have read RCBO's offer this kind of flexibility could you populate a CU with only RCBO's ?

Indeed they do and yes you can but the price of MCB's are around £4 and the price of RCBO's around £23.

is Also what kind of CU and setup would you recommend for the orginal circuit diagram with the addition of a seperate circuit for the Boiler and the Fridge freezer?

Probably the same one that your spark will recommend when you discuss it with him.

Also what I have not mentioned is that I currently have an alarm which is spured from a spur and I would like to change this obviously

Why, it could be fed by a radial.

should this be fed by its own circuit as well or do I need to to just make the orginal spur a fused spur and leave it as is?

It is something I do.

Finally I have also heard people mentioning hardwiring of smoke alarms being a requirement is this true?

Not necessarily.

From the questions you pose it sounds to me that you intend to complete this installation yourself - you can of course do that - but you will have to go through your Local Authority Building Control first.

It is my personal opinion that this site has been set to help DIYers with everyday electrical problems that can occur around the house not to design circuits.
If you are going doing the route described above then you really need to stop asking questions here and start reading here:
http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...ult&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQ8wIwAg#
http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...noOZe5-QbKqaHpDQ&sa=title&ved=0CAkQ8wIwADgA#p
and here
http://www.theiet.org/publishing/books/wir-reg/17th-edition.cfm

 

[ban-all-sheds]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/IEE-Wiring-Regulations-17th-explanatory/dp/0863418449

£60..!!!

Yes.

Either you are interested in doing things properly, in which case the price of a couple of evenings beer & curry shouldn't be a problem.

Or you're not, and it is.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Matty, rewiring a house, installing new CUs, outside supplies, submains etc is not a trivial job, and I can assure you that it involves knowing far more than you think it does.

Asking questions here can be a useful part of a learning process, but they are not a substitute for proper structured studying. The key term there is "learning process" - you cannot learn all the things you need to know just by asking questions here. It isn't structured enough - it won't provide you with a way to progress where each step builds on what you learned before.

You can't carry out a job of this magnitude by asking whatever random questions happen to occur to you. What if you get something wrong because you have no idea your knowledge is wrong? What if you miss something because you simply have no idea it even exists, and just don't realise you don't know it?

• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics
  
  [*] //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/electricity.html
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm[/list]I suggest you get stuck into the last link right away - it won't give you design ideas, and unfortunately it doesn't refer to the current edition of the Wiring Regulations, but it's free, and will still give you a good grounding which you can augment with more up to date publications.

 

[mattysmithuk]

It is my personal opinion that this site has been set to help DIYers with everyday electrical problems that can occur around the house not to design circuits.

I see, I was under the impression that it wasnt do it yourself (except where it a big job then bottle it and pay someone else)

If I am thinking logically I spent 7 years training to do what I do and paid over 20k to get certified (First Class BSc, CCNA, CCVP, MSTSC, MCP and so on...) and I see others who did not go to this trouble as my industry is not regulated performing sub standard installs/designs and it gets my back up after the hard work I've put in so I know my stuff. On the other hand as a householder whos purchased his first house and doesnt have a lot of cash flow but plenty of spare time if it costs less to perform the install myself, which i think personally is a silly situation, then why wouldn't I choose that option. I am not dumb and if id decided to be an electrician when I left school I wouldn't be here.

I don't want someone to pop up and design it for me I only want advice on what I have allready proposed.

I personally think that this is a Do It Yourself forum and as such, where the law permits, then people should expect to see posts for advice like mine. I won't do anything illegal, I wont knowingly do anything unsafe and I am asking what may seem like simple questions but I have spent 5 hours a night for the last 2 weeks reading about what I am planning and sometimes internet hearsay isn't enough when you want reliable advice I simply want to clarify some points which someone with experience would probably be able to answer whereas I may need to spend 2 hours googling and find inaccurate information.

I am looking at this as a sideline to make some money on the weekends to pay back the cost of registering, qualifying and my insurance which means I could potentially by year end have only paid the cost of the materials to do a full re-wire.

So to clarify I would like to know kindly.
1. What you would charge for this job roughly, design as first diagram with the addition of a dedicated feed for the boiler fridge and alarm. There will be 2 double sockets per bedroom upstairs (6) and 3 double sockets in the kitchen with 3 double sockets in the living room giving a total of 12 sockets. Lighting will be as is apart from the existing dining room light switch ( soon to be part of a kitchen diner) will need to be wired to the light in the kitchen as well as the the one point existing in the dining room.
2. What kind of CU you would recommend for my proposed design.
3. If there is any requirement for smoke alarms to be hardwired in.
4. This will be a partial re-wire as the exisitng ring final wil be extended and re-used to supply upstairs, while two new circuits supply downstairs are there any special requirements that I may not be aware of.


Thanks again for reading.

 

[mattysmithuk]

Matty, rewiring a house, installing new CUs, outside supplies, submains etc is not a trivial job, and I can assure you that it involves knowing far more than you think it does.

Asking questions here can be a useful part of a learning process, but they are not a substitute for proper structured studying. The key term there is "learning process" - you cannot learn all the things you need to know just by asking questions here. It isn't structured enough - it won't provide you with a way to progress where each step builds on what you learned before.

You can't carry out a job of this magnitude by asking whatever random questions happen to occur to you. What if you get something wrong because you have no idea your knowledge is wrong? What if you miss something because you simply have no idea it even exists, and just don't realise you don't know it?

• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics
  
  [*] //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/electricity.html
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm[/list]I suggest you get stuck into the last link right away - it won't give you design ideas, and unfortunately it doesn't refer to the current edition of the Wiring Regulations, but it's free, and will still give you a good grounding which you can augment with more up to date publications.

• 
  
  Thanks for the Link I'll get stuck into that, I have purchased the 17th edition BRB and on-site guide they should be with me in the next few days.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am looking at this as a sideline to make some money on the weekends to pay back the cost of registering, qualifying and my insurance which means I could potentially by year end have only paid the cost of the materials to do a full re-wire.

This was the very first thing you wrote after joining the forum:

Hi all I am going to be paying a sparky to do the work.

FOAD, you lying little toe-rag.

 

[mattysmithuk]

I am looking at this as a sideline to make some money on the weekends to pay back the cost of registering, qualifying and my insurance which means I could potentially by year end have only paid the cost of the materials to do a full re-wire.

This was the very first thing you wrote after joining the forum:

Hi all I am going to be paying a sparky to do the work.

FOAD, you lying little toe-rag.

Your right I did say that then I got quoted 2.5k to do the job and quickly changed my mind. Id happly pay someone a reasonable amount to do it but I won't pay someone over 2k for 2 days work Wayne Rooney paid that much and look what he got for his money!

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Hi Matty,
IMO if you need to be asking these question, you are not yet ready to undertake this work yourself.

I have highlighted what i believe is the most important thing you have said so far...

I would like to ask you how you intend to verify whether you will have done the job safely, after all, it is you who will have to inspect and test it then sign some form of declaration that it has been done safely??

It is my personal opinion that this site has been set to help DIYers with everyday electrical problems that can occur around the house not to design circuits.

I see, I was under the impression that it wasnt do it yourself (except where it a big job then bottle it and pay someone else)

If I am thinking logically I spent 7 years training to do what I do and paid over 20k to get certified (First Class BSc, CCNA, CCVP, MSTSC, MCP and so on...) and I see others who did not go to this trouble as my industry is not regulated performing sub standard installs/designs and it gets my back up after the hard work I've put in so I know my stuff. On the other hand as a householder whos purchased his first house and doesnt have a lot of cash flow but plenty of spare time if it costs less to perform the install myself, which i think personally is a silly situation, then why wouldn't I choose that option. I am not dumb and if id decided to be an electrician when I left school I wouldn't be here.

I don't want someone to pop up and design it for me I only want advice on what I have allready proposed.

I personally think that this is a Do It Yourself forum and as such, where the law permits, then people should expect to see posts for advice like mine. I won't do anything illegal, I wont knowingly do anything unsafe and I am asking what may seem like simple questions but I have spent 5 hours a night for the last 2 weeks reading about what I am planning and sometimes internet hearsay isn't enough when you want reliable advice I simply want to clarify some points which someone with experience would probably be able to answer whereas I may need to spend 2 hours googling and find inaccurate information.

I am looking at this as a sideline to make some money on the weekends to pay back the cost of registering, qualifying and my insurance which means I could potentially by year end have only paid the cost of the materials to do a full re-wire.

So to clarify I would like to know kindly.
1. What you would charge for this job roughly, design as first diagram with the addition of a dedicated feed for the boiler fridge and alarm. There will be 2 double sockets per bedroom upstairs (6) and 3 double sockets in the kitchen with 3 double sockets in the living room giving a total of 12 sockets. Lighting will be as is apart from the existing dining room light switch ( soon to be part of a kitchen diner) will need to be wired to the light in the kitchen as well as the the one point existing in the dining room.
2. What kind of CU you would recommend for my proposed design.
3. If there is any requirement for smoke alarms to be hardwired in.
4. This will be a partial re-wire as the exisitng ring final wil be extended and re-used to supply upstairs, while two new circuits supply downstairs are there any special requirements that I may not be aware of.


Thanks again for reading.

1, You have already had a quote, which you feel is too expensive. Rather than asking joe public what they think it should cost, why don't you tell us how much you think it should cost?

2, I would recommend a Consumer unit which lends itself to compliance with current regulations based on the design of the install, which you have yet to define.

3, At one point in my past, i had cause to enquire about the requirement for hardwired smoke alarms. I managed to find the answer in a short time by using google (other search engines are available), maybe, considering all the computer orientated qualifications you hold, you can do the same?

4, Depends, what special requirements are you not yet aware of?

Heres a thought, instead of you asking for competent electricians to do the donkey work for you based on a rather poor initial drawing,
-why don't you do a completely specified list of requirements, devised by you based on your requirements. It looks better than a child-like scribble drawing from page one with some bits added in the subsequent posts.
This should include the construction of the CU with ratings et al.
When this is done, please post it here and then we can all look at it and offer criticism and advice based on how good your effort is.

If you really have spent 70 something hours researching this project, and you have a first class in BS and all that other stuff, then that scribble you produced does not reflect well upon you as it looks like you have taken no care over this at all.

 

[1john]

£2.5k on an installation whice should last 20+ years.

After you purchase all materials and spend a good few days planning and designing, spend a good 2 weeks installing, spend a while testing and buy / rent a set of test equipment and notify building control you will end up working yourself for the equivalent of £1/£2 an hour, if you are lucky, surely it is better to go to work and earn more that that whilst a competent and qualified person is supplying you with an installation which is safe, compliant, guaranteed and properly tested.

I think mikhailfaradayski has had the best suggestion, you cover and explain every aspect of the installation including cable calculations, once you have collated all the information and we can critique it.

 

[mattysmithuk]

Point taken, I have never said that I am now ready to re-wire a house after a few hours research on an online forum I said that I am considering paying over a £1000 to learn how to and register with the appropriate bodys. I didn't do a degree in technical drawing im afraid I didn't realise that was a requirement to be a sparky? Also everything I want to know I can find out by spending hours googling anyway I was hoping for more direct answers from this forum. I could of posted on an sparky forum and played up the fact I was learning it at as a trade and I doubt I would of met with this kind of hostility.

Is the thought of a DIY'er being able to complete his own re-wire something which upsets you that much? after all even if I didn't register with an approved body wont it have to be tested to be approved by the council? and before you say its my responsibility to test the council have confirmed they test not me or another part P registered sparky, although I will be renting the equipment to ensure that it is safe. I don't mean to get on a soap box but I can't help feel theres a lot of sscaremongeringgoing on here trying to convince people they can't/arn't allowed to re-wire their own homes when infact they are. This is a DIY forum isn't it where people are seeking advice to do it thereself? Advice such as pay someone else isn't really in keeping with the whole idea of the forum is it?

Just my 2 pence, hell I can't do worse than the last sparky who charged £500 to fit a new socket in the living room, this was his novel approach to not having a junction box with him.

 

[mattysmithuk]

I have spent 5 hours a night for the last 2 weeks reading about what I am planning...

I am looking at this as a sideline to make some money on the weekends to pay back the cost of registering, qualifying and my insurance which means I could potentially by year end have only paid the cost of the materials to do a full re-wire.

So to clarify I would like to know kindly.
1. What you would charge for this job roughly, design as first diagram with the addition of a dedicated feed for the boiler fridge and alarm. There will be 2 double sockets per bedroom upstairs (6) and 3 double sockets in the kitchen with 3 double sockets in the living room giving a total of 12 sockets. Lighting will be as is apart from the existing dining room light switch ( soon to be part of a kitchen diner) will need to be wired to the light in the kitchen as well as the the one point existing in the dining room.
2. What kind of CU you would recommend for my proposed design.
3. If there is any requirement for smoke alarms to be hardwired in.
4. This will be a partial re-wire as the exisitng ring final wil be extended and re-used to supply upstairs, while two new circuits supply downstairs are there any special requirements that I may not be aware of.

You don't even know what you're doing.

I'll say what most electricians on here may not:

1. f*** you
2. f*** you
3. f*** you
4. f*** you

hope that helps

ps I'm not even an electrician

Lol really with that level of intelligence I'm not suprised.

 

[1john]

I am not scaremongering, rewiring a house is easy. The design however, for someone with no experience is or can be difficult. You ultimatly want a versitile and servicable installation. I, and i'm sure others would be more than happy to critique your plans from a more developed stage.

 

[riveralt]

Is the thought of a DIY'er being able to complete his own re-wire something which upsets you that much?

Absolutely not - there numerous people who have come on this forum asked questions and gone on to successfully complete a rewire with BC approval.

I don't mean to get on a soap box but I can't help feel theres a lot of sscaremongeringgoing on here trying to convince people they can't/arn't allowed to re-wire their own homes when infact they are.

Because I don't know you personally, my responses here have to be based on the questions you ask and how you respond to answers given.
On that basis I formed the view that you are not even remotely ready to safely complete a rewire. This is an opinion - you can accept that opinion or reject it.

Learning is step by step process. To gauge your competence set yourself a task of designing, installing and testing a simple two way lighting circuit on a test rig with a one gang switch upstairs operating one ceiling rose and another two gang switch down stairs - one operating two way with the upstairs light and the other acting as a switch for an outside porch light. If you can do that then you are five weeks into a 2330 level 2 course.

This is a DIY forum isn't it where people are seeking advice to do it thereself? Advice such as pay someone else isn't really in keeping with the whole idea of the forum is it?

DIY to me also means Don't Injury Youself.

 

[mattysmithuk]

I am not scaremongering, rewiring a house is easy. The design however, for someone with no experience is or can be difficult. You ultimatly want a versitile and servicable installation. I, and i'm sure others would be more than happy to critique your plans from a more developed stage.

Thanks for the offer I will be designing it properly and I will post up the spec and calculations I have performed to come to that spec in the next couple of days I'm just waiting for my BRB and on site guide to come first before I finalise anything.