How to judge qualifications?

[dishman]

Can somone make a sticky post or wiki as to what qualifications are and are not important for an electrician to have. Or what would one consider the basics. I think it would be very useful for a laymen to know.

I have been told and read many a time on here that membership of a trade organisation such as the niceic (or any other body) does not guarentee an electrican who will do a quality job. An electrican is also not required to be Part P registered. This just means they cannot self-certify, correct?

I ask this because, for a layman/someone who is just getting a domestic electrican, it is very easy to be misled by qualifications and how much weight they may or may not carry.

For example I have had a quote from two electricans. Both niceic registered, both can carry out EICRs (so does this mean they are Part P?).

Both have been recomended by a local residents' forum (so second hand recomendations).

One has all of the "extras" on their niceic tick list, the other just has one.

For example, one has; trustmark, approved contractor, Pat testing, domestic installer.

The other just has domestic installer.

How much weight do the extras carry? It can easily make one think that one electrician is far more qualified and competant than another.

Thoughts?

 

[EFLImpudence]

I have been told and read many a time on here that membership of a trade organisation such as the niceic (or any other body) does not guarentee an electrican who will do a quality job.

True.

An electrican is also not required to be Part P registered. This just means they cannot self-certify, correct?

Yes, but the 'self-certify' relates to the Building Control certificate; NOT the Electrical certificate which anyone may (is allowed to and should) do.

I ask this because, for a layman/someone who is just getting a domestic electrican, it is very easy to be misled by qualifications and how much weight they may or may not carry.

It is but that's life and the same for all trades.

For example I have had a quote from two electricans. Both niceic registered, both can carry out EICRs (so does this mean they are Part P?).

Not necessarily. Any one may (is allowed to) do EICRs

Both have been recomended by a local residents' forum (so second hand recomendations).

If genuine, then may be a better guide.

One has all of the "extras" on their niceic tick list, the other just has one.
For example, one has; trustmark, approved contractor, Pat testing, domestic installer.

Irrelevant as a guide to their workmanship and knowledge.

The other just has domestic installer.

A title invented by NICEIC for those of limited knowledge and experience.

How much weight do the extras carry?

None.

It can easily make one think that one electrician is far more qualified and competant than another.

It can but not reliable.

A person with no bits of paper may be the best.



Personal recommendations of previous work are the best.


Not much help, I realise, but the truth.

 

[Robin0577]

There isn't a single straightforward answer to your question, but I'll try to cover all your points in the order you made them.

Membership of a self certification scheme such as NICEIC, NAPIT, etc. doesn't have any direct link to specific qualifications, but in order to join such a scheme you have to demonstrate a minimum level of qualification and experience. Membership also involves annual inspection of work. However, it's possible for a firm to become registered and display the membership, but for only one person on that firm to have what is known as qualified supervisor status. That means that firms can allow inexperienced employees to carry out work provided it's under the control of the qualified supervisor. Obviously that can be open to abuse.

There is no such thing as "Part P" registered. Part P is a section of the building regulations dealing with electrical safety, it applies to all domestic electrical work including DIY. Certain work is notifiable to building control under Part P, other work is not. DIYer's may do notifiable work provided they notify building control in advance and follow all the requirements building control then ask of them, the fees for this often mean that the job is not worthwhile for the DIYer, Members of self certification schemes can undertake notifiable work and notify afterwards via their scheme operator much much more cheaply.

Domestic Installer status means that the electrician is backed by the scheme only for doing domestic work. Approved Contractors are backed for doing commercial work too, and PAT for portable appliance testing. For domestic work only the Domestic installer status is really relevant but having the others may indicate the contractor has a wider range of experience.

Trustmark is a government backed quality control scheme, I'm not sure how it works but I don't believe it has and direct link to qualifications, although I'm sure that there are minimum requirements for membership.


Actual qualifications in this field are usually but not always from City & Guilds, and may include some of the list below and/or more specialist ones for solar installation, electric vehicle charging, security systems, etc. etc. the list can be almost endless.

• 2382 - Requirements for Electrical Installations
  Also known as the 17th Edition Wiring Regulations
  
  
• 2394 - Initial and Fundamental Inspection and Testing
  
  
• 2395 - Periodic inspection and testing

• 2396 - Design, Erection and Verification

• 2393 - Building Regulations for Electrical Installations in Dwellings
  Known as Part P
  
  
• 2377 - Electrical Equipment Maintenance and Testing
  Generally referred to as PAT Testing
  
  
• 2357 - Electro Technical Technology
  
  
• 2365 - Electrotechnical Craft

• 2330 - Electrotechnical Technology
  In the process of being replaced by C&G 2357 and C&G 2365
  
  
• 2391 - Electrical Installations
  Now being withdrawn and replaced by C&G 2395
  
  
• 2392 - Fundamental Inspection, Testing and Initial Verification
  Now being withdrawn and replaced by C&G 2394

Also, as EFLI has pointed out since I started writing this, none of these things can be considered a cast iron guarantee. What they mean is that a person has demonstrated, probably more than once, that he or she is capable of working to the required standard, not that they always will. Much as passing a driving test proves that you are capable of driving safely, not that you always will.

 

[JohnD]

Bearing in mind that if you had the choice of two taxi drivers, and you knew nothing about them except that one had a driving licence and the other didn't, you would be rash to choose the one without.

 

[Robin0577]

Bearing in mind that if you had the choice of two taxi drivers, and you knew nothing about them except that one had a driving licence and the other didn't, you would be rash to choose the one without.

Absolutely. If the bit of paper is the only information you have to go on, then it's infinitely better than no bit of paper.

 

[ericmark]

Because we are still a member of the EU any qualification from any country will cover. It does not have to be British. However to show they can read and have at some point read the regulations then one would expect every electrician today to have C&G2382 in real terms even the old C&G2381 would be good enough, I personally only took the C&G2381 in 2001 before that point I just had my apprenticeship deeds and exams taken in late 60's early 70's and at that time collages could set the exams, they were often not nationally set.

So some one of my age (65) could not have any national set exams to their name.

There is also the C&G2391 and 2392 the latter is seems is a cut down version of the former, unlike the 2382 this exam needs more than the ability to read a book, and there are many good electricians who don't have this bit of paper, today the whole system has changed, when I started you left school at 16 and after 4 years of college and work you got your apprenticeship deeds, today people don't leave school until they are 18 so it has to be all crammed in 2 years instead of 4, so the collage system has also changed with block release instead of day release, so all the exams today are part what you do in collage and part the actual exam, this means no longer can those from allied trades simply sit the exam, you have to do the course.

Back in my dad's day he left school at 14 and the apprenticeship took 7 years, 5 years in the same firm, then 2 years journeyman with 6 months in 4 separate firms. At that time is was common for tradesmen to not go to any school or if they did it was night school.

The move for night class, to day release, to block release may be good for school leaver, but for anyone taking up the trade latter in life it's rather hard now to get time off work to do the course, and when you do the course it is filled with so much practical work those moving from allied trades find it rather boring, so often instead of the block release they will go for qualifications above level 3 done by most school leavers, so I have a degree, my son has a HND, so in both cases our qualifications are higher than most school leavers will get, but don't always mean we have the practical skills.

Once you get level 5 or above the route is often to gain letters behind your name issued by the IET, this often reflects time and position, so you would need to have worked on the design of a major project to get some of the letters behind your name, and you have to pay every year to keep them.

So the guy who writes the BS7671 book of regulations likely has not got any of the standard qualifications that most apprenticeships will give you. When I was at Uni non of my lecturers had C&G2382 or 2391, however they were far more clever than myself. I have never been JIB registered as I was in engineering section, I was never Part P registered again because I did mainly industrial work, until this year I was a member of the IET however, the body who write the regulations.

So the only qualification you can really ask for is C&G2382 which as I said does not really show you are a good electrician all it says you can read English, as far as I am aware you can't take any of the level 2 and 3 exams in Welsh, you can do level 5 in Welsh, but not level 3. As a result in Wales you may find Welsh speaking electricians who don't have C&G but do have degrees.

 

[EFLImpudence]

It is, of course, illegal to drive, let alone be a taxi driver, without a license but that aside -

when your taxi driver with a driving license crashes, (qualified electrician does a bodge) what are your thoughts?

 

[Robin0577]

when your taxi driver with a driving license crashes, (qualified electrician does a bodge) what are your thoughts?

In theory of course, that is supposed to be one of the main benefits to the consumer of using a scheme registered electrician. The scheme operators have a certain amount of disciplinary clout over their members. Never having been involved in a compliant procedure, either as a consumer or as a scheme member, I can't really comment on how well it works.

 

[ericmark]

For example I have had a quote from two electricans. Both niceic registered, both can carry out EICRs (so does this mean they are Part P?).

Not necessarily. Any one may (is allowed to) do EICRs

Except Scotland where you need to show you have been trained in I think last two years, if doing them on a rented property. Since I don't live in Scotland I have not found out what this training is, when I was working I would go to the many IET lecturers which were designed to keep one abreast of new systems and regulations, I expect these would count, but don't know, also larger firms do what they call tool box talks, where you again are kept abreast with new things.

Only today I realised I had missed something, I had not realised there was a minimum and maximum height for consumer units. 1350 to 1450 mm above floor level, in mother house it is under the stairs, it comes under Part M building regulations if it was that height in this house my mother would not be able to reset MCB's without using a stick.

 

[ericmark]

In theory of course, that is supposed to be one of the main benefits to the consumer of using a scheme registered electrician. The scheme operators have a certain amount of disciplinary clout over their members. Never having been involved in a compliant procedure, either as a consumer or as a scheme member, I can't really comment on how well it works.

Again just today I found This Video of the Parliamentary Select committee who reduced the Part P requirements, what was clear was the poor track record the scheme providers had for removing people from the scheme. However it is better than the track record of firms with names like trusted tradesmen who it seems are nothing more than an advertising and job agency.

The Unions with their closed shop system actually did a better job, when the government crushed the Unions they also crushed the consumer protection the Unions and Guilds gave to uphold their name, so in the end it was replaced by the scheme providers at a higher price to Joe public.

 

[JohnD]

when your taxi driver with a driving license crashes, (qualified electrician does a bodge) what are your thoughts?

When your unlicensed driver crashes (perhaps he's never taken a test, perhaps he lost it for dangerous driving or DUI), are your thoughts anything other than "I have only myself to blame?"

 

[EFLImpudence]

The OP is not in Scotland.

 

[dishman]

A title invented by NICEIC for those of limited knowledge and experience.

I assume that you mean Niceic is using this term to describe (in their assessment) those with less knowlege/experience. Whereas in reality they may be very experienced but just limit themselves to domestic work.

 

[EFLImpudence]

When your unlicensed driver crashes (perhaps he's never taken a test, perhaps he lost it for dangerous driving or DUI), are your thoughts anything other than "I have only myself to blame?"

No, but I have advised the OP to go with personal recommendations.

Nothing else will give him any idea of the quality of work to be expected.

 

[securespark]

it comes under Part M building regulations

Part M does not apply for a bog-standard rewire.