ideal vogue or intergas combi?

[JohnHarrison]

I'd go for neither of the two.

The Ideal Vogue has a stainless steel Giannoni heat exchanger which is fragile if system pressure drops. The better bet is the Ideal Logic which has Ideal's own robust cast aluminium heat cell.

I can not understand why people keep recommending Intergas boilers, is it just to be different? Major manufacturers have moved away from one piece heat exchangers on combi boilers for two reasons.

The first reason is scale. If a plate heat exchangers scales up then you can replace it. If a one piece heat exchanger scales up like the Intgergas one then your boiler will need replacing.

Secondly, when the heating is off in the Summer one piece heat exchangers take longer to warm up so the response to turning on a tap is slower.

Load of old nonsense...

Depends where in the country you live as to whether scale is a problem....here in London it isn't. I've got many bithermals (Ferolis, Puma/Lynx etc) some 20 years old now operating just as good as new.

Even if scale was a problem it's relatively simple to descale them with a powerflusher hooked up to the hot and cold.

My only real issue with the Intergas is parts availability.

I saw an Intergas on display in a Plumb Center which is a national chain. The sign said all parts are freely available. Plumb Centre also sell boiler parts.

 

[JohnHarrison]

There is little wonder why no one else makes boilers like Intergas anymore as they are backward.

Major manufacturers have moved away from one piece hex combis due to problems with scale and poor performance.

Yes most manufacturers would probably void the warranty over scale being found but it would be found in the plate heat exchanger which is a relatively simple and inexpensive repair. With an Intergas it would mean a new boiler.

I have a brand new Vokera SE non-condensing boiler with a one piece heat exchanger and it works brilliantly. In a soft water area one piece heat exchangers must be the way to go as they are simpler and do not need three way valves. As for scale, the old Ascot instant water heaters were descaled easily enough and they were a one piece heat exchanger.

 

[JohnHarrison]

Reading this whole thread, one, SilentDancer, says Intergas are crap because he thinks they are slightly less efficient. As they have few parts they obviously will be more reliable, cost less to service and less call out charges over its life so any slight increase in gas cost will be more than compensated by less maintenance charges. Then there is the reliability which equates to far less cold showers or no heat in the house. The other gripe is that hot water can be 70C at the tap in winter, unless a weather compensator sensor is fitted. The boiler has weather compensation as standard. Not to fit the sensor is madness when the boiler comes with it. They save gas. Back to efficiency, the Intergas with the weather compensator must be more efficient than an Ideal combi (supposed to be more efficient) without.

I looked at the Intergas in Plumb Center and the on-line pictures, and the heat exchanger appears to be the whole back panel using all the space available. It looks like a well thought out design. All parts are easily accessible directly from the front, unlike the other combis I see which are mess of randomly placed, difficult to get to, parts. I find many mechanics recommend cars which all parts are easily accessible and are easy to fix. Maybe all combi designers should take a lesson from Intergas.

I believe it is the only combi that can be open vented with a feed and expansion tank. Is that so?

 

[Biggles..]

John- looking at one in a merchants and actually being on the spanner end of them are completely different things.
Parts are not kept in stock at plumb centre, they're next day or two.
Spares prices are extortionate with a PCB at over £250-300, after sales is non existent and warrenty work is service agent and when they feel fit.

As for your weather comp statement, read what I wrote, not every installation, client, building, system suits weather compensation. It's a factory option as the place where the boiler was designed and built has to have it as mandatory.
There are score of install where it is quite probable that under normal operating conditions the hot water will be in excessive of the scalding limits.

Looks wise it's a turd rolled in glitter, the back pack for the built in expansion vessel is dire, the pipe cover an embarrassment and not everyone has room for a robokit.

From your posts so far, it's very salesman like, not an intergas rep by chance?????????

Don't get me wrong I wouldn't jump at a vogue.

 

[JohnHarrison]

LeeC, see my other posts on the thread I created on the second pressure relief valve. We have two boilers under consideration. If a condensing combi then the Intergas is favourite because of its simplicity. A blending valve on the hot water outlet appears the best thing, just to be sure. That is not a great expense or hassle.

As to the scale side of an Intergas, or any combi for that matter, simple provision in the pipework can be fitted to connect up a hose with isolating valves, to pour in and flush out descaling solution. In other words think ahead and make maintenance easy for the future. The slap 'em in and run boys would never do that.

As an aside, many plumbers when a combi has some problems recommend stripping it out for anew one if it is nearing 10 years old. The reasons I found were that:
1) they did not understand how it works being mainly pipe fitting plumbers.
2) If they did understand it, they did not like replacing parts in a combi that is difficult to work on.

One great asset of an Intergas is its ease of maintenance, when it does need maintenance of course. It looks very well thought out.

 

[cypher007]

ok just cutting in here.

do I need then to tell my parents to make sure he fits a TMV on the DHW?
do I need to tell them to make sure he fits the weather compensation sensor?

just a side note. I used to be a HVAC control panel engineer and we used to fit weather compensators to most sites. so for me weather compensation is an added bonus rather than and unnecessary complication.

 

[JohnHarrison]

cypher007, as the guys have stated, when the weather compensator is fitted high temps at the hot water tap do not arise, unless the compensator is messed about with. The Intergas comes with a weather compensator and you are right, it is daft, or downright ignorance, not to fit the outside sensor and use this brilliant function. Commercial buildings have been using weather compensation as standard for 50-60 years. As the guys mentioned, it is mandatory in Holland.

 

[Biggles..]

Your a controls engineer, not a user!massive differnce, albeit the intergas only uses an outside NTC for its WC
It's not daft or ignorant, its customers needs. It doesn't suit every job, if it did then we'd be like the clog wearers or the sausage suckers and it would be mandatory.
2-3% saving against over complicated controls in general don't cut it!

John I've not read the bit about two reliefs but I will.

The intergas's week point is the copper rounds that loop between the HEX, seen very similar on different systems pop/split/fail.
As for well thought out-not particularly, the prv is an afterthought as they don't leave the factory like that (UK only) the pump center is a pug to get at and the pump connections are always loose.
Parts availability especially for the 40 are days not next day.

There's better products on the market IMO

 

[JohnHarrison]

LeeC, most products are a compromise of some sort. Simplicity and hence reliability come top in my league, why I went for a Vokera SE (no troublesome 3-way valve). Despite your reservations, overall no combi cannot match the Intergas for ease of accessibility. The weather compensator is thrown in with the Intergas combi, so not using it, when in most residential cases it can be used, is rather a dumb. I give that in all cases weather compensation is not needed. The cracking you mention in the heat exchangers. Weather compensation will keep temperatures down as will not having the hot water at the taps set too high. A cooler heat exchanger will last longer. I read that Ingergas have not once changed a heat exchanger, but Dan appeared to write that he had. Part availability should improve as this boiler is being taken up across the UK. Parts I suppose were a problem for Vailants when they first appeared in the UK.

What product do you think is better?

 

[Biggles..]

If we were to look at reliability, I've fitted about a dozen intergas's this year, had warrenty calls to 5 of them straight out the box. (4fans and a pcb).

Last 5 weeks I've done 24 vaillant pro28's, a Vaillant 637 system, ideal logic system plus 30, worcester 30Si and a remeha quinta. Out of those I've had 0 warrenty issues!!!!!!!!!

The weather comp on an IG isn't thrown in, the boiler software has it written in but you have to PURCHASE SEPERATELY the outside sensor,
As to longer lasting-who knows but a boiler that runs cooler and for longer will as seen on the IG cause a nice tide mark up the hex from condensate formation, Components will fatigue quicker through constant use ie fans,solenoids etx.
Dan has de scaled many IG's and most are aware that the IG hex has failed on the odd occasion.

Not really wanting to get into the WC arguement as I don't believe in the benefits in a domestic environment, my own WC setup at home has been disabled because it doesn't perform. (ATAG and a WiZe)

 

[JohnHarrison]

Thanks. The outside sensor has to be bought separately I know, but the weather compensator control is in the combi thrown in. You had early failure problems. Once rectified they are OK? Once components get past the early failure period they tend to go for a long time. Your experience with this brand appears different to others I have read on this forum. I am curious how a tide mark up the hex from condensate formation a problem as it is supposed to cope with that?

 

[Biggles..]

Not sure what you mean by early failure period, the intergas has been here in various guises for a while, they're now on a different pump, fan and gas valve to earlier versions....4 moving parts and they've swapped 3 of them.

DanR will be along shortly to tell you that apparently one of those boilers was dropped in the box...NOT, but and it always makes him smile that this year I've fitted more of his beloved boilers than he has, yet I don't see the big attraction by them.
For me they're a marmite boiler let down by IGUK, I'm sure most of the fanatics on here will even agree that the company leaves a lot to be desired.

Apart from a couple I've only fitted them in commercial ventures where the looks don't matter and their isn't another combi available with 40kw to heating!


Most modern boilers have the software for weather comp built in, IG are offering nothing new or special there, the only difference being they use a cheap sensor where the others opt for a complicated and sometimes expensive controller.

Without ruining the guys thread, Vogue over intergas anyday of the week for domestic install.

 

[JohnHarrison]

I am speaking generally about early failure for any electrical or electronic component in any type of appliance. Once you get past the first few months they tend to go for a long time. You never had early failure as the parts never worked out of the box. I don't find the boiler ugly at all. The ATAG with that plastic case is.

We have three combi boilers in consideration for my neighbour/friends flat. Non-condensing Vokera SE, Intergas and the ATAG with the built-in hot water recovery system. The difference in price from the Vokera to the ATAG is amazing. But the ATAG has great hot water flow and I assume far cheaper to run.

 

[JohnHarrison]

With a one piece heat exchanger you have a larger mass to heat up than with a boiler with a separate plate heat exchanger. Thus response times are slower.

Not that much larger, and you don't have a pump to start up and prove before ignition. No pump needed on h/w only with a one piece.

Good point. This must save a significant amount of money on electricity over a year and also the pump is used less, so less wear.

 

[cypher007]

ah will need to update my Dad, as I told him this morning about the WC sensor being part of the setup.

Dan do you fit WC on yours?