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Interesting EICR Video

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by AndyPRK, 3 Jun 2021.

  1. AndyPRK

    AndyPRK

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    Count the problems. lol

     
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  3. SUNRAY

    SUNRAY

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    How on earth does he think that's one of the worst. AFAIC that one was quite tidy compared to some I've come across.
     
  4. AndyPRK

    AndyPRK

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    Really ?
    With the cover left off and bus bar exposed ? I guess the door was shut
     
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  5. SUNRAY

    SUNRAY

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    And some...
     
  6. SUNRAY

    SUNRAY

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    Half a length of 4x4" steel trunking with half a dozen assorted plastic accessories fitted using couplings and brass bushes. Someone had added a bonding cable between the trunking and the earth bar in the main feed using yellow single. Some later work found it being connected to phase 2 via a 60A BS88.

    Another pair of tails added to a Henley block. The block had previously been highlighted as broken and taped up (I looked in the log book), it was the type where the bars lift out. I found both bars floating in mid-air on the tails.

    Doors and internal covers missing on 200A busbar chamber.

    Private 1MW substation with no covers on the LV terminals.

    Metal 3ph board with cover missing and only one MCB in place leaving all the other positions exposed.

    The cover missing or damaged on a domestic CU is not that rare.
    The busbar cover missing in a domestic CU is not that rare.
    Additional CU's being poorly added in a domestic installation is not that rare.
     
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  7. ericmark

    ericmark

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    The bit I was concerned about was the DNO and an emergency electrician had been there first. Had he simply walked in on that OK, seen a lot worse.

    However I remember working in Dairy Crest, I was one of two electricians working from same firm that day, although we both had independent jobs, I needed a hand so made safe and went to get the other electrician to help me, found the room where he was working, covers off the distribution boards with live exposed wires, but no sign of other electrician.

    Phoned the boss asking where he was, I was expecting to find he was injured in some way, as seemed no other good reason to leave work in that state, boss knew nothing so came to help me make safe.

    Found out other electricians wife worked in a Pub and due to start 6 pm so he needed to get home to look after the child so she could go to work. To my mind no excuse, he could have at least rang the boss or me and got assistance, had Dairy Crest found out the firm would have been thrown out.

    But what I could never understand is he did not think he had done anything wrong. He felt at 5 pm it did not matter what stage the work was up to, he could go home. To be frank the boss should have never given him that job as a lone worker, but not sure the boss realised he would be working in live boards, but still how can any electrician walk away and leave a job like that?
     
  8. securespark

    securespark

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    That is absolute hogwash and he should have been locked up for that.

    How the hell he could ever think that was acceptable, I don't know.
     
  9. ericmark

    ericmark

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    I think the HSE can take people to court for not making some thing safe or not reporting it. However if the emergency electrician reported the fault in writing he may be able to get out of trouble. However not sure on legal position? Is an electrician allowed to draw the DNO fuse if the installation is dangerous?

    Since it seems it is a smart meter I suppose an email to the DNO saying in a dangerous condition needs disconnecting would be OK as they can disconnect remotely. Otherwise no point in Smart meters.

    However we should not make a home uninhabitable, however I would say already uninhabitable.

    So I would say drawing DNO fuse is the correct method, or do the work shown.

    But would like to hear what others say, if called to a house with that mess, and you have not the ability to correct before leaving, what is the correct procedure?
     
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  11. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    I'm no lawyer, but I'm not at all sure that an electrician has 'authority to interfere with' an electrical installation without the householder's permission (no matter how well-intentioned), particularly if the householder is actively withholding that permission and/or "telling them to leave'. It could be that bringing the problem to the attention of the householder (and documenting that such has been done) is the most that an electrician could, themselves, do without risking being the ones who were in potential legal trouble.
    Well, for a start, it would have to be the Supplier, not the DNO. One could contact the DNO and they could, if they so wished, come and pull there fuse (if they could get access), but they obviously could not interact with a Smart Meter (which has nothing to do with DNOs) in any way. Whether or not either Supplier or DNO would 'care about' an installation that was dangerous, provided that it was not endangering their supply or equipment is perhaps a different question.

    Kind Regards, John
     
    Last edited: 4 Jun 2021
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  12. bsr

    bsr

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    DNO cannot disconnect only the supplier. Most suppliers have disabled the remote disconnect command in case of a cyber attack or (more likely) human error so a remote disconnection is non-trivial and likely to take longer than the traditional method of a warrant and some size 10 boots.

    Normally we or DNO would not take any action against anyone pulling a cutout fuse on a dangerous situation.
     
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  13. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    That's obviously what one would hope.

    Mind you, I have to wonder whether any DNO has ever 'taken action' against someone simply for pulling a cutout fuse?

    Kind Regards, John
     
  14. ericmark

    ericmark

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    Thank you both for thoughts, I have no answers, I was always taught that in a case of danger the electrician can countermand the managing director, but we all realise in practice can't be done.

    I have turned off a supply to test and refused to re-energise, and told the occupants I can't re-energise because of the danger, however can't stop them from re-energising. I know as soon as I leave it will be switched back on, but I left it in a safe condition.

    Clearly one can't walk off with the DNO fuse in ones pocket, that is theft, so you can pull the fuse, but occupier can simply replace it, so it does seem pointless.

    Same with PAT testing, you can put a label on it to say do not use, but can't cut off the plug. I do the same with the daft socket protectors, remove them all, then give them back in a bag.

    Which raises the question what did the emergency electrician really do? How do you know if he re-energised or not, or what report was sent to owner?
     
  15. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    I don't think it's necessarily that simple, since we are again (as with EICR coding) in the territory of judgements about the degree of 'potential danger'.

    What if you tell the occupants that you "can't re-energise because of the danger", but they respond by saying that "it has been exactly the same as that for the last 10 years" or even "yes, we know that it is potentially dangerous, but it's been like that for many years and we are always very careful not to touch it". Would you still feel as justified in refusing to re-energise?
    Yes, I meant to mention that. IF you did decide that you had to remove the cutout fuse then I think you would, at the very least, have to re-seal the cutout and, despite what you say, ideally also 'confiscate' the fuse. Otherwise, one of those Courts that you so often like to talk about could say that, since you knew that they would probably replace the fuse if you left it there, you would be reckless, perhaps negligent, if you left it there.

    Kind Regards, John
     
  16. SUNRAY

    SUNRAY

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  17. ericmark

    ericmark

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    I was not so lucky, may hand is crushed as a result of lock being removed, we had two locks, a personal lock and an electricians lock, the machine needed more than one lock, so the general electricians lock was removed by another electrician and plant turned on. Turned off again when I screamed. I think the electrician was talking to a driver and not paying attention to what he was doing, but truth never came out.

    The foreman was asked to resign over it. The problem is it was not my job, and I had already refused the job once, and had been told there is no one else, you have to do it. Which is why foreman blamed. I never worked again until retied then started volunteering on local heritage railway. Before I retired to have done so would have meant no benefits, it was hard to get people to understand yes I can do the job, but not at a speed that any employer will pay me for doing it. As a volunteer no one cares if it takes me 5 hours to do 2 hours work.

    The biggest problem was when government changed the rules, my payout was reduced to take into account what the government would pay me, but when government changed rules could not return and ask for more money.

    The rules say a key or tool, but in the video clearly locking off the isolator in the CU would not remove danger. In my own house the CU is inside a wooden box, and it has 2 knobs on the doors, so a tie rap around the knobs would need a tool (snips) to open the doors. If the CU was not the problem then dropping tails would work, but since it was the CU then not really an option to drop tails.

    So suppose the official method is phone DNO and wait for them to arrive, and to phone landlord and say tenants need alternative accommodation. Although if the room with the CU in could be locked, then that would do, again looking at my own house, CU in the flat, so could simply lock the flat doors.

    The problem with locks is who has keys, and that was my down fall. I remember another job where I left keys with foreman as not sure who would return to do the work, and the keys were given to a fitter who turned power back on.

    I remember my dad doing a 24 hour shift as his relief had not turned up, it was illegal for him to leave without being relieved, which was a little daft as he was so tired the company got him a taxi home as not fit to drive.

    But is a home a continuous process? And this is the point, not so much what was done wrong, but what should have been done? If called out as an emergency electrician that should not be a life sentence, you need to return in a reasonable time. And once you have arrived at the job, with a missing consumer unit lid, what then? OK should be a phone call to landlord and arrange a hotel, but that assumes you can talk to landlord, you arrive at 7 pm and letting agent offices close at 5 pm, and no idea who the landlord is. What then?

    The whole idea of emergency tradesman is he fixes the problem, not passing the buck, so black plastic bin bag and insulation tape and you tape it on and phone letting agents in morning and explain it needs a new consumer unit. And for all we know that could have happened.
     
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