Jeremy (C) Hunt picks the wrong battle

[JohnD]

Our much-unloved Health Secretary is arguing with Stephen Hawking over matters of fact and scientific evidence.

Which of them is more likely to be telling the truth?

"In his initial article which provoked the debate, Hawking criticised Hunt’s decision to establish a seven-day NHS, claiming that the Health Secretary “cherry-picked” research to support his arguments, whilst flatly ignoring contradictory evidence."

"Attacking Hawking’s statement, Hunt claimed that the physicist has no “evidence at all” to back up his arguments, claiming that since the Tories came to power in 2010, the amount of people seeking private health insurance has fallen by 9.4%.

But now, Hawking has clinically deconstructed the ailing Health Secretary."

http://evolvepolitics.com/stephen-h...ly-deconstructing-the-health-secretarys-lies/

I'm thinking of taking up tennis. Should I challenge Serena Williams and Andy Murray, and expect to win? Is Jeremy a right hunt?

"Now Prof Hawking has issued a rebuttal, writing in the Guardian that Mr Hunt’s article admits he based his findings on only one paper – the Fremantle study published in the British Medical Journal in 2015 – which he said was “disputed”.

He pointed out that the author of the study, Professor Nick Fremantle, had himself explicitly warned that “to assume these excess deaths are avoidable would be rash and misleading”."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...secretary-theoretical-physicist-a7912041.html

"Hunt misquoted me, saying that I claimed the government wants a US-style insurance system. What I said was that the direction is towards a US-style insurance system, run by private companies. The increasing involvement of private health companies in the NHS is evidence for this."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/25/jeremy-hunt-attack-nhs-stephen-hawking-crisis

 

[Doggit]

Well you took a long time to post this John, you'd normally have got this out the next day. Now whilst I'll accept Hawkings as the leading expert in physics etc, being a devout labour supporter like yourself, I'd have to question his ability to make a dispasionate examination of the NHS, just as I completely question the so called independance of the article you've quoted.

Now why is it that people who quote the outsourcing of NHS services, always cite that as proof that the NHS is being privatised. Hunt is right in that there are more deaths on the weekend, but only part of that is down to the lack of consultants and doctors, it's also down to the path lab and other services not being being open as well, so they're both wrong.

 

[JohnD]

Well you took a long time to post this John, you'd normally have got this out the next day.

Observe the publication date.

Friday 25 August 2017

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/25/jeremy-hunt-attack-nhs-stephen-hawking-crisis

being a devout labour supporter like yourself, I'd have to question his ability to make a dispasionate examination of the NHS

It's interesting to hear that you're a devout labour supporter.

You can only guess what I am.

I agree with you that Jeremy Hunt's ability to make a dispassionate examination of the NHS is highly questionable.

 

[JohnD]

they're both wrong.

Please point out where Stephen is wrong.

"The secretary of state for health, Jeremy Hunt, has challenged me on Twitter and in an article for the Sunday Telegraph over a talk I gave recently to the Royal Society of Medicine in defence of the NHS. Having been accused by Hunt of spreading “pernicious falsehoods”, I feel the need to respond.

Hunt doesn’t deny that he dismissed research contradicting his claim of excess deaths due to poorer hospital care and staffing at the weekend. He admits he relied on one paper by Professor Nick Freemantle and colleagues. But even if one accepts its disputed findings, the authors explicitly warn that “to assume these excess deaths are avoidable would be rash and misleading”. The editor-in-chief of the British Medical Journal, Fiona Godlee, wrote to Hunt to reprimand him for publicly misrepresenting the Freemantle et al paper. As a patient who has spent a lot of time in hospital, I would welcome improved services at the weekend. For this, we need a scientific assessment of the benefits of a seven-day service and of the resources required, not misrepresentation of research."

You're welcome to read the rest of the article
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/25/jeremy-hunt-attack-nhs-stephen-hawking-crisis

 

[Doggit]

Oh God John, you always quote the Guardian because it follows your thinking pattern, and you only want to defend Hawkings whiilst I said they were both wrong. Well I supose it's nice to know that you are as consitant as ever.

 

[Doggit]

It's interesting to hear that you're a devout labour supporter.

And you wonder why no one has any respect for you when you play such childish games.

Observe the publication date.

This aregument between then started over a week ago.

 

[JohnD]

Please point out where Stephen is wrong.

No?

This aregument between then started over a week ago.

I must have missed your thread about the news item. Where is it?

 

[Doggit]

I watched the item on the news, but didn't think it worth reporting. But I was dissapointed that a person of SH's stature felt he needed to bother with politics.

 

[JohnD]

I'm not disappointed that a well-informed citizen has opinions and knowledge to share about the NHS.

Tax is politics. Education is politics. Policing is politics. Inflation is politics. Healthcare is politics. Why don't you want anyone of stature to talk about them?

 

[big-all]

Well you took a long time to post this John, you'd normally have got this out the next day. Now whilst I'll accept Hawkings as the leading expert in physics etc, being a devout labour supporter like yourself, I'd have to question his ability to make a dispasionate examination of the NHS, just as I completely question the so called independance of the article you've quoted.

Now why is it that people who quote the outsourcing of NHS services, always cite that as proof that the NHS is being privatised. Hunt is right in that there are more deaths on the weekend, but only part of that is down to the lack of consultants and doctors, it's also down to the path lab and other services not being being open as well, so they're both wrong.

we also need to know if the "more deaths at weekends" is a general point within society in general as in 50-60 hours between visits 0ver the weekend will cover more people with family and social services visits possibly far less at weekends
in other words we need to know if the daily average is any different at weekends
we also need to to know if people actions or habits are different at weekends that may increase the the risk off death even if the level off support and help where the same
or put it another way the weekend is more than one day so wee need to know iff they are comparing an exact time scale as in 24 hours on each
as a fact some people will die during an operation with fewer operations over the weekend there will be fewer dying because off operations
my susspicions are a manipulation off the figures as in a day will tend to be 8 to 24 hours where as a weekend will tend to be 52 -34 hours so fully manipulated

 

[Doggit]

Because it's a bit like Jon Snow telling the crowds at Glastonbury that they need to f**k the tories; expect as a broadcaster, he's supposed to be netural. In the same way, the number of bishops that are supposed to tend to the spiritual nature of their flocks, nowadays feel they have the right to step into politics as well as the church, yet would be offended if we stood up in church as condedmned their teachings. SH doesn't have any "special" knowledge of the NHS, he just doesn't like what Hunts and the tories are doing. Unfortunately Hunt doesn't have an special knowledge of the NHS either, but that's pretty much been the same for most health ministers.

Actually, tax, policing and inflation has nothing to do with politics, only policies of the party in power at the time; it's only education where politics is taught, that has anything to do with it. Labour make as many mistakes when in power, but you wouldn't be condemning them would you. Therein lies the difference between a discussion, and an unfailing support no matter how bad something is.

 

[Judy in the sky]

Observe the publication date.

Friday 25 August 2017

Wow, the Guardian must be slipping. Heard about this a few days before this Johnnyboy.. Do you not subscribe to Twitter for social networking (or do you simply rely on this forum? )

 

[noseall]

Not really a fair fight though is it. The most hated man in politics who belongs to the most hated party in the country, fighting a brilliant and clever, national hero.

Hunt, like 3/4 of the serving cabinet, is a Tory ****.

 

[Mottie]

I thought we lived in a democracy? How can the most hated party in the country be in power? Who is the most liked party in the country and why aren't they in power?

 

[JohnD]

Wow, the Guardian must be slipping.

I'd be surprised if you're read Friday's article "a few days before" it was published on Friday.

Nothing to say about the actual issues, then.