In my opinion the government missed a golden opportunity when the bubble burst 6 years or so ago, people who couldn't pay their mortgage, instead of turfing them out on the streets the government should have bought those houses up and kept the family there until things turned around and they were able to resume their mortgage, until that time it became a council house...
"on benefits and proud"
- Thread starter big-all
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its more the feeling i get from question time daily politics and other sources where the numbers mentioned are quite small
one thing that was telling was the government stated figures on savings from the measure assumed very very few would would move and pay the extra tax where as around 20% are not having to pay the bedroom tax
some are being exempt after eased requirement others are moving
Depends on your definition of fair?
Is it fair for someone to pay 10x more in tax, than they use in services, than most other people pay by a large margin, then for someone to still cry "they are not paying their fair share".
Personally, I prefer the sweedish method, cap management pay at a multiple of minimun wage, but stick taxes at 40-50%, I don't think you can be fairer than that.
B
Big Tone
This could probably be a separate thread, (heated argument), all on it's own. But someone should say it. For those who haven't seen it before, it's a bit long winded but stick with it.
Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1. The sixth would pay £3. The seventh would pay £7. The eighth would pay £12. The ninth would pay £18. And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.
So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem.
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20.”
Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?
They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody's share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer!
So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fairer to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage. They decided to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay. And so, the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (a100% saving). The sixth man now paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33% saving). The seventh man now paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28% saving). The eighth man now paid £9 instead of £12 (a 25% saving). The ninth man now paid £14 instead of £18 (a 22% saving). And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16% saving).
Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings...
"I only got £1 out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got £10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a £1 too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"
"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all! This new tax system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next week the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important - they didn't have enough money between all of them to pay for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction.
Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1. The sixth would pay £3. The seventh would pay £7. The eighth would pay £12. The ninth would pay £18. And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.
So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem.
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20.”
Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?
They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody's share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer!
So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fairer to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage. They decided to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay. And so, the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (a100% saving). The sixth man now paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33% saving). The seventh man now paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28% saving). The eighth man now paid £9 instead of £12 (a 25% saving). The ninth man now paid £14 instead of £18 (a 22% saving). And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16% saving).
Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings...
"I only got £1 out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got £10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a £1 too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"
"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all! This new tax system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next week the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important - they didn't have enough money between all of them to pay for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction.
Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
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On the other hand -
Had I just won the lottery I may choose to pay for all my friends' drinks and not even notice the deficit as my bank account would have increased by much more than the cost.
Had I just won the lottery I may choose to pay for all my friends' drinks and not even notice the deficit as my bank account would have increased by much more than the cost.
i actually started watching the recording off the program
and although i know its very one sided and talking about small minorities for the sake off good tv i couldn't watch more than a few mins before getting cheesed off
i wasnt that cheesed off the first time i watched it
it must have been the several beers first time
and although i know its very one sided and talking about small minorities for the sake off good tv i couldn't watch more than a few mins before getting cheesed off
i wasnt that cheesed off the first time i watched it
it must have been the several beers first time
Excellent explanation BT. That's exactly the Labour party's philosophy and, given free rein, they'd frighten off all the wealthy who'd take their brass to foreign countries.
Can you imagine what state this country would be in then?
B
Big Tone
Thanks JBR. I don't take credit for it of course, (just read and recall a lot), and I'm not saying I agree with obscene greedy huge earners. But that is how it is.
IIRC they tried screwing the wealthy in France after Francois Hollande got in, (people earning > €1 million per year). So they went to places like Belgium and Luxembourg instead, leaving their Government wondering where all the revenue had gone.
Actually, I don't mind people earning a King's ransom so long as they put it back into society and help others. Like philanthropist Bill Gates.
IIRC they tried screwing the wealthy in France after Francois Hollande got in, (people earning > €1 million per year). So they went to places like Belgium and Luxembourg instead, leaving their Government wondering where all the revenue had gone.
Actually, I don't mind people earning a King's ransom so long as they put it back into society and help others. Like philanthropist Bill Gates.
Do you remember Jimmy Carr 'getting into trouble' for 'avoiding' tax (although, strangely, not with HMRC) by utilising schemes made up by those who make the rules specifically for that purpose?
Does no one realise that the wealthy pay relatively little tax because there are so many ways around it for them.
Why are there tax havens within the British Isles?
Does no one realise that the wealthy pay relatively little tax because there are so many ways around it for them.
Why are there tax havens within the British Isles?
I am not disputing the state of affairs but questioning why it is allowed and for what purpose.
it goes back centuries
each area controlled there own powers
over the years they combine to form larger areas
until now where only southern ireland and the 3 island now are separate from westminster and have there own parliament
scotland off course have there own parliement but no control over tax except small local taxes
each area controlled there own powers
over the years they combine to form larger areas
until now where only southern ireland and the 3 island now are separate from westminster and have there own parliament
scotland off course have there own parliement but no control over tax except small local taxes
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