Permitted Development/Planning Permission interpretation of 2 storey extension

[Rothman]

I'm currently going through the process of applying for planning permission for a 2 storey extension, 5m downstairs and 3m upstairs.

Having read what is permitted development, I've found 2 points that I consider are in contention of each other, or, at least, I can't understand why one should negate the other:

1. In addition, outside Article 2(3) designated land* and Sites of Special Scientific Interest the limit is increased to 6m if an attached house and 8m if a detached house until 30 May 2019.
2. Extensions of more than one storey must not extend beyond the rear wall of the original house* by more than three metres.

Why should what I do upstairs affect what I do downstairs? Why can I go 6m out on a single storey, but only 3m out on a double?

My downstairs would sit largely below the fenceline for the neighbours, so in effect, it's the upstairs that would create more issues, but the distance I want falls under what would be permitted ONLY as long as I do the same downstairs. One of the reasons I want a bigger downstairs is so it doesn't look like one big ugly block stuck onto the back of the house, rather, the offset will create a more visually asthetic finish.

Could I do the downstairs to 6m for now, and do the 3m separately in that case at a future point? If not why?

In my opinion this is one point where the regs fall over; you should be able to go 6 and 3 out downstairs and up respectively, or you can't, within permitted development rules.

 

[LukeB123]

The 6m / 8m single storey rear extensions are done under the prior notification scheme, sort of separate permitted development legislation, where if no neighbour objects permission is automatically granted. They are quite large extensions.

Also they are written as catch all legislation for all properties. There might not be as much of an impact on your specific properties, but a tight row of terraces could have more of a detrimental impact.

Could I do the downstairs to 6m for now, and do the 3m separately in that case at a future point? If not why?

Downstairs to 6m is either a full application or a Prior Notification application. The 3m extension on top would need its own separate full planning application then, because proposed extensions are judged on whatever they are also attached to, in order to calculate whether or not they require consent so if you have 6m already, anything on top will require consent. (unless you go down the route of using the case that Tony pointed out on another thread)

 

[Seafarer1966]

The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 is so badly written and unclear it is a recipe for misinterpretation. It was written and is constantly amended by civil servants who have never worked in a local government planning department actually handling planning applications.

You're best bet is to contact your local council planning department and ask them what their interpretation is. Some planning departments will give pre-planning application advice for free and some charge for it.

What it's definitely best to have is confirmation in writing that you don't need planning permission for your extension. If you do go ahead and build it there is the risk that the local planners may say you needed permission for that, ending up with you footing the bill for a retrospective planning application.

There is also the risk that if you ever sell the house the surveyor for the interested party may query 'did this extension need planning permission?'. Resulting in you jumping through hoops with the local planning department trying to get confirmation in writing that you didn't need planning permission before your buyer pulls out.

 

[^woody^]

I'm currently going through the process of applying for planning permission

Having read what is permitted development

I'm as confused as you are.

 

[Rothman]

I'm as confused as you are.

Your point being? I've had to apply for planning permission for my desired extension, and in the meantime I'm researching what is considered "permitted development".

 

[^woody^]

Your point being?

I am not.

But my point was your post was not clear. But the PD rules are. First floor extensions have a greater impact on others, so are controlled more. Someones "visually asthetic finish" is not necessary the same as someone elses, so that why planning rules have a set of standards that apply to all.

 

[Rothman]

I don't think you followed my post correctly, I was as clear as I could be. I actually pointed out that the first floor extension is the one having the greater impact, so then why should that affect what happens on the ground floor?

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I don't really quite understand your post either.

 

[wessex101]

I agree with OP. It is daft that you can build a 3m deep 2 storey extension under PD and you can potentially build a 6m deep ground floor extension under PD but you cannot combine the 2 under PD. One of the many anomalies in the rules as Seafarer alluded to. Its like you can build a rear single story extension under PD and you can build a side single storey extension under PD but you can't do both. It makes no sense.

Mind you, I don't think any 2 storey extension should be PD let alone those god awful flat roof dormer extensions.

 

[Rothman]

I don't really quite understand your post either.

Let me put it in simple terms for you.

1 storey - can have 6m extension under permitted development
2 storey - can only have 3m extension on ground floor, but can have 3m upstairs under permitted development

I want 5m downstairs and 3m upstairs.

I consider upstairs the bigger issue, so why can't I have both? Why then does it go to planning permission?

 

[Rothman]

I agree with OP. It is daft that you can build a 3m deep 2 storey extension under PD and you can potentially build a 6m deep ground floor extension under PD but you cannot combine the 2 under PD. One of the many anomalies in the rules as Seafarer alluded to. Its like you can build a rear single story extension under PD and you can build a side single storey extension under PD but you can't do both. It makes no sense.

Mind you, I don't think any 2 storey extension should be PD let alone those god awful flat roof dormer extensions.

Here's where it gets worse for me. Originally, I was cheeky and asked for 4m upstairs. Our attached neighbours have no issues whatsoever and let the council know as such when they received the letter. Our non-detached neighbours complained that the 4m upstairs would stick out 1m further than their house and the one attached to theirs (2 doors down from us and has no bearing on this whatsoever) as our house is set 3m further forward. It got refused. 3m upstairs brings us in line with this neighbour so we'll see how that application goes.

YET; our non-detached neighbours are considering their own extension. They'd be allowed to go out 3m top and bottom and stick out 3m further than us once again under permitted development.

Infuriating doesn't begin to cover it. Although I should consider the fact that I'd still have a lot more house space than theirs without eating into the garden.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

The PD rules prevent you building a two storey extension that protrudes 3m at ground combined as it's considered to be too bulky. The fact that the limit has been temporarily increased for ground storey extensions is irrelevant.

 

[^woody^]

You seem to be fixtated on dimensions, but in planning issues that is not as relevant as you think.

 

[wessex101]

Here's where it gets worse for me. Originally, I was cheeky and asked for 4m upstairs. Our attached neighbours have no issues whatsoever and let the council know as such when they received the letter. Our non-detached neighbours complained that the 4m upstairs would stick out 1m further than their house and the one attached to theirs (2 doors down from us and has no bearing on this whatsoever) as our house is set 3m further forward. It got refused. 3m upstairs brings us in line with this neighbour so we'll see how that application goes.

YET; our non-detached neighbours are considering their own extension. They'd be allowed to go out 3m top and bottom and stick out 3m further than us once again under permitted development.

Infuriating doesn't begin to cover it. Although I should consider the fact that I'd still have a lot more house space than theirs without eating into the garden.

If the original 4 metre deep 2 storey extension was rejected because it protruded 1 metre beyond rear wall of set back neighbour that seems rather harsh. I would have thought your designer could have put up an argument to overcome that objection, even if it was something like lowering the eaves height etc. Have you used your re-submission on this 3 metre extension?

 

[Rothman]

You seem to be fixtated on dimensions, but in planning issues that is not as relevant as you think.

Could you elaborate? All I can infer from that is that you mean that each development is treated under its own merits by the authority that approves the planning application. If that's the case then in my opinion it completely undermines the rules set out by regulation.