Problem in Oil Pipe To Tank.

With respect, as I said, the hot water thermostat can be turned off ( to its lowest point. This gives no demand and the boiler operates in CH mode only. There may be a little heat transference through the diverter valve, it may even be passing significantly but your Worcester engineer would have noticed that!!!!! He only looks after the boiler.
Did you ask him about that? I am looking at these day in day out, and not just one, as you are, which may be faulty.
 
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With respect, as I said, the hot water thermostat can be turned off ( to its lowest point. This gives no demand and the boiler operates in CH mode only. There may be a little heat transference through the diverter valve, it may even be passing significantly but your Worcester engineer would have noticed that!!!!! He only looks after the boiler.
Did you ask him about that? I am looking at these day in day out, and not just one, as you are, which may be faulty.

O.K. Thanks for that. All I can say is that we always have the hot water set at number one which as you know is the lowest setting. This makes the water plenty hot enough for us.

Like I say....this happens even if the hot water button on the installed timer is pressed to 'off'.

Look at it this way.

We have a Honeywell CM927 Wireless Programmer which we use with the boiler. This particular timer programmer will only operate the Heating.

This programmer is set to turn the Heating on at 7.00AM every morning as we get up at 7.30AM, and the hot water at the boiler is set to OFF.

....no timing...no nothing....just OFF. (Not meaning to 'shout')

And yet....we have a lovely large head thermostatic shower which of course is run from the boiler.

This water stays hot enough at around 7.45AM for us to both shower if the heating alone is on.

I agree though, that the water will stay hotter for longer if the hot water button is lit up for ON.

Funnily enough...I did ask the Worcester Engineer about it this very morning....and he said that it was an anomaly with the boiler!

"There may be a little heat transference through the diverter valve, it may even be passing significantly but your Worcester engineer would have noticed that!!!!! He only looks after the boiler."

All I can say is that if things are going a little bit amiss in the way you describe for me....then he didn't react to it. Possibly there is a fault which he has chosen to ignore? I would not know.

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to give me help with this...you obviously know millions more than I do. :) .....me I am just :mrgreen:

But I have mentioned it to customer support...and they have passed it on to technical, and I will be writing to the director of marketing and technical support myself.

The bottom line for me is that I want to control exactly when I want the boiler to call for hot water. Not the Boiler!

It isn't the end of the world I know, but I am a bit more concermed about it now the price of oil is going up and up and up.

The boiler is a lovely boiler and on our last service 3 months ago it was showing 93.2 efficiency....so that's good.

Best Regards

Boozercruiser
 
So then guys....thanks to you with good advice which in turn helped me tackle Worcester which in turn got our central heating and hot water back on :D as per above numerous posts.

However....as I reflect on the whole situation (as you do!) it makes me wonder what might have happened if I had not come here for advice.

Luckily for me....I purchased and had fitted the Worcester Heatslave boiler 18/25 just over 2 years ago when they had a special promotion of a 5 year guarantee....providing that the boiler was serviced every year.

But what if I did not have that Guarantee? I mean, two different Engineers came out on three separate occasions of a total of over 2 hours work. During that lot the first Engineer put in a brand new burner, and changed various bits and pieces including I believe a solonoid.

It now looks that all the problem was after all was a ruddy bit of air in the oil line caused by possibly some moisture which had frozen in the line.

I shudder to to think that only for the Guarantee I could be facing a rather BIG bill for what should have been and was easily sorted out by the second engineer. All it needed was for the first Engineer take the trouble to check the outside line.

When I telephoned that first engineer (before the second one came out he said "I've done all I can....I even fitted a brand new £900 burner for you"

So that makes everything alright then does it M8 :confused:

Does anyone have any thoughts to either agree or disagree with me?

Does anyone have any idea what sort of bill I might have been facing for what to me amounted to an amount of incompetance and/or lack of interest to see the job through. I mean...how can he be certain that the boiler is working absolutely if he did not have any oil at all getting through to the boiler?

Does a burner really cost £900 to replace?

God....I am sitting here writing this right next to a lovely hot radiator in the living room, and can hear the water quietly whizzing around the system.

Heaven....just heaven!......Cheers. :D
 
Good afternoon Kenny
First, I'm delighted that things have got sorted - albeit after almost a week without a boiler!
Its rare to replace a full burner (I only do this if the unit is so old that it has no air purge facility). A burner for your system would cost around £450 tops, and naturally enough it would need jetting and commisioning to your boiler. This, including a gas analysis would take an hour max to do.
I have no idea what brief that Worcester engineers have to work to, but to leave a system untested due to lack of oil seems to be an act of an imbecile - it does indeed sound that he had no idea about what he was doing, or worse, really didn't care about the outcome. A satisfactory and clean oil supply is one of the first things to check.
Mind you, I have had the odd customer who claims that they have never run out of oil, get it was more than obvious that they had. Another old chestnut is to ask for a yearly boiler service, whilst in reality it had been broken down for months!
Regards to you both
John :)
 
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Good afternoon Kenny
First, I'm delighted that things have got sorted - albeit after almost a week without a boiler!
Its rare to replace a full burner (I only do this if the unit is so old that it has no air purge facility). A burner for your system would cost around £450 tops, and naturally enough it would need jetting and commisioning to your boiler. This, including a gas analysis would take an hour max to do.
I have no idea what brief that Worcester engineers have to work to, but to leave a system untested due to lack of oil seems to be an act of an imbecile - it does indeed sound that he had no idea about what he was doing, or worse, really didn't care about the outcome. A satisfactory and clean oil supply is one of the first things to check.
Mind you, I have had the odd customer who claims that they have never run out of oil, get it was more than obvious that they had. Another old chestnut is to ask for a yearly boiler service, whilst in reality it had been broken down for months!
Regards to you both
John :)

John...thank you very much for your valuable input yet again and further point of view.

What you have said is more or less cementing my look at the sequence of events and the logic of it all.

Me? of course am just an absolute novice who stands to be corrected by the professionals such as yourself on my thoughts in respect of how the job panned out.

I have of course put all of my case to the Customer Service people as posted above, who I understand have passed it on to the tecky people and the engineers boss who should be able to judge if it is me, the first engineer or the Worcester way of doing things that is at fault.

What they say won't be an independant judgment of course....but right now I will give them the benefit of the doubt in respect that they will give an honest appraisal.

They tell me that I can expect a formal reply inside 10 days.

But the way I feel right now, I think an apology for the days of discomfort and worry my Wife and I went through in this fiasco would be in order*****

Plus an offer of compensation to extend the guarantee for a further FIVE years would be nice!***** :LOL:

(So long as they never send the first plonker again)! :)

"Another old chestnut is to ask for a yearly boiler service, whilst in reality it had been broken down for months!"

I must remember that one John! :LOL:


P.S. In my corrospondance with Worcester I gave them the link to this post.

So, If you are reading this Worcester people...how about it?***** ;)

Best regards

Kenny.
 
P.S. John.....you may be interested to know why he replaced the burner. I went out into the Garage because I heard some banging.
Ho was using a hammer to try and release a piece of equipment which was bolted to the side of the Burner.

He could not release it so he ordered a new burner instead! :confused:

He came back the next day on the Saturday to put it in.

On top of everything else.....does that make any sense either?

To me it is a mixture of :confused: :) :LOL: :cry:

P.S. I have requested copies of both engineers reports......now THEY should make interesting reading...and I will post them here once I have them. :)
 
Sorry Kenny I was under the impression that a new burner had been fitted just to test the boiler, and with no dice there then the old one had been put back....clearly not!
As for hammering a bit off the side of the burner I've really no idea. Clearly the person involved was a neandertal trying to discover the secret of fire.....
It will be interesting to hear the reply from Worcester. If you read the gas posts on here there is obviously a terrific difference in manufacturers attitudes towards customer care and back up - I can't comment on this but I have had help form Worcester in the past and they did have a good attitude, at least on the oil side.
Regards!
John :)
 
Sorry Kenny I was under the impression that a new burner had been fitted just to test the boiler, and with no dice there then the old one had been put back....clearly not!
As for hammering a bit off the side of the burner I've really no idea. Clearly the person involved was a neandertal trying to discover the secret of fire.....
It will be interesting to hear the reply from Worcester. If you read the gas posts on here there is obviously a terrific difference in manufacturers attitudes towards customer care and back up - I can't comment on this but I have had help form Worcester in the past and they did have a good attitude, at least on the oil side.
Regards!
John :)

John...I would have replied sooner, but for some reason I didn't get an E. Mail to tell me that there was another post.

The Engineer told me that because he couldn't get that black bolted side bit off the burner unit..(I think he just wanted to replace that black bolted on bit). he would return the next day and fit a new burner. And he did come back on the Saturday morning.

Do you know what that bolted on side bit is?

(This was what he was hammering away at... please look at the side bit on the new photo's I have just uploaded under 'Burner Heat Exchanger')...

NOW THEN......you have me wondering. Did he actually change that Burner for a brand new one....OR...did he take the one away which was in the boiler....do a bit more hammering away from here....get the bolted on bit off.....and put the burner back on?

I didn't stand there watching him the whole time.....so I would not know.
I mean, I normally just TRUST a professional person to just do the best that they can, and leave them to get on with it.

All I know is that when I telephoned him on Monday to ask if he could do more(Still no heating or hot water then) he said......

"No, I have done all I can....the boiler is working O.K...I even put a brand new heat exchanger in for you costing £900"

Can you tell from the photoe's if that is a brand new burner?

Oh! by the way.....that IS a brown dust that you can see all around the units. What the hell that is I do not know.

Is there any way for me to tell if the burner is in fact new?

I have requested both Engineers reports, and Worcester reckon that they have been sent, but I didn't receive them this morning. Just as soon as they arrive I will post here....should make interesting reading!

"Clearly the person involved was a nneandertaltrying to discover the secret of fire....".

I am thinking that he is something else that rhymes with FIRE at well!!
 
Saturday 29th January 2011
So then, I received the Engineers reports from Worcester this morning. Perhaps you guys can make more sense of it than me?

Friday 21st January. Replaced parts (7-716-100-098) job type CT01-BDWN.

1. Coil solenoid valve
1. Control box satronic
1. Photocell and flange

Replaced the parts above but the oil pump was stuck to the burner and unabel to replce it booked back in with a new burner.

Labour Charge £0.00P

Saturday 22nd January 2011.

1. Burner Sterling 50

Replaced the burner as oil pump was stuck to it. The line was frozen advised customer to get there installer to fix it.

Labour Charge £0.00P

(All above exactly as written....including spelling).

So, after my complaining with the help of knowledge gained here and another 4 days of cold another Engineer came out on...

Tuesday 25ththanuary 2011.....his report.....:-

Air being drawn into line from poor fittings. Repaired and Comp tests.
Gross Efficiency 92.0

Labour Charge £0.00P....................................END OF REPORTS

All the last Engineer said to me was that there had been air in the line.....he didn't say anything to me about poor fittings.
Perhaps he should have advised me what he meant by that so I could react and get them replaced.

So then....like I say, THREE Engineer visits.....the parts above replaced, including a burner (Well, he was bashing seven kinds of poo out of the other one with a hammer!)

...what a right fiasco from the first engineer which left us without hot water or heating for around 5 days just because of air in the oil line. :evil: :) :confused:

If I was that first Engineers Boss.... I don't think I would be a happy chappie! :mad:

What I cannot figure out is that he put a brand new burner on....and didn't have any oil to test it with? It makes me want to weep.

But me....I know nothing. :) :cry:

One thing I am sure of....Thank goodness I have a 5 year Guarantee...otherwise I reckon I would be in a right old battle with Worcester over the cotsing of the whole fiasco being charged to me. :mad:
 
I'll start by saying that I don't condone the actions of the WB fellas but the 1st guy was was working within his remit, the terms & conditions of your contract with them probably specify that they only cover (i.e. work on) the boiler. It's a frustrating situation for the customer but that's the way their warranty works. Presumably you have to have the boiler serviced to keep the warranty up, if so is this done by WB or can you get an independent in who will also service and maintain the oil line/tank?

He probably wanted to swap the oil pump out (or check coupling) to prove whether this was faulty or not. Unusual for a pump to stick like that but occasionally things do go horribly wrong (we all have bad days) and he did return the next day with parts to carry on proving the burner OK - presumably he'd have removed the other parts put on for trial and error testing if he'd stuck with the 1st burner.
He then advised you to go back to your installer to sort out the oil line, you opted not to and to pursue WB. Again I can understand your frustrations as your expectations of the service WB were providing were clearly not met.
I do wonder if the 1st fella thought it might work if there was a bit of thaw on in the week and that's why he suggested you call him.
The next guy has obviously been told "just get it sorted" which he did.
As I say I don't condone the terms of the contract but if the 1st fella had damaged anything trying to fault find outside the boiler he'd have been in the brown stuff with his boss so I can understand him working to rule (if I have a filter seal split or an old plastic bowl crack I know I have the parts to replace, the WB fellas probably don't).

As boilerman2 said an independent would just get on and check everything, I go out to boilers covered by warranties and either replace parts under authorisation or refer back to the in-house engineers. Anything on the oil supply line can usually be sorted.
 
I'll start by saying that I don't condone the actions of the WB fellas but the 1st guy was was working within his remit, the terms & conditions of your contract with them probably specify that they only cover (i.e. work on) the boiler. It's a frustrating situation for the customer but that's the way their warranty works. Presumably you have to have the boiler serviced to keep the warranty up, if so is this done by WB or can you get an independent in who will also service and maintain the oil line/tank?

He probably wanted to swap the oil pump out (or check coupling) to prove whether this was faulty or not. Unusual for a pump to stick like that but occasionally things do go horribly wrong (we all have bad days) and he did return the next day with parts to carry on proving the burner OK - presumably he'd have removed the other parts put on for trial and error testing if he'd stuck with the 1st burner.
He then advised you to go back to your installer to sort out the oil line, you opted not to and to pursue WB. Again I can understand your frustrations as your expectations of the service WB were providing were clearly not met.
I do wonder if the 1st fella thought it might work if there was a bit of thaw on in the week and that's why he suggested you call him.
The next guy has obviously been told "just get it sorted" which he did.
As I say I don't condone the terms of the contract but if the 1st fella had damaged anything trying to fault find outside the boiler he'd have been in the brown stuff with his boss so I can understand him working to rule (if I have a filter seal split or an old plastic bowl crack I know I have the parts to replace, the WB fellas probably don't).

As boilerman2 said an independent would just get on and check everything, I go out to boilers covered by warranties and either replace parts under authorisation or refer back to the in-house engineers. Anything on the oil supply line can usually be sorted.

Thank you for your very knowledgable views in respect of my post.

I accept fully your observation that the first Worcester engineer was likely working strictly to his remit which probably is to only work on the boiler, no matter what.

This is why in my E. Mail to Worcester Customer Service which I posted here earlier in which I expressed my dismay that because of the remit I had TWO different engineers out on THREE seperate occasions when after all was said and done the problem was in the oil line.

It is to Worcesters credit that following my E. Mail to them they obviously did send out the second engineer with a remit to trace back to the oil tank if needed. It is just a pity the first engineer didn't have that remit also.

What happened is a failing of the Worcester system (I think) of obviously instructing engineers "Work on the Boiler....that it.....nothng else".

instead of....

"As boilerman2 said an independent would just get on and check everything, I go out to boilers covered by warranties and either replace parts under authorisation or refer back to the in-house engineers. Anything on the oil supply line can usually be sorted".[/quote]


And another thing you say is spot on also Casius66 ...

"I can understand your frustrations as your expectations of the service WB were providing were clearly not met".

You can say that again :mad:

"I can understand your frustrations as your expectations of the service WB were providing were clearly not met". :LOL:

P.S. I still think that the first WB Engineer left a lot to be desired though.
I mean....is it normal for a heating engineer to bash 7 kinds of bells out of the Burner with a hammer to try and get the pump off?

That banging had gone on for quite a while, and he only stopped when I looked to the garage to see what all the banging was. He said "I've been trying to get this off...I can't so I will come back tomorrow with a new burner".

That's for one...and I could go on! :LOL:
 
All the last Engineer said to me was that there had been air in the line.....he didn't say anything to me about poor fittings.
Perhaps he should have advised me what he meant by that so I could react and get them replaced.

Meant to comment on this too - the tigerloop requires fittings to be air tight to work effectively, the guy must've checked and tightened fittings so there should be no further work required on this.

It can be hard when working for a large company to not be seen as a maverick if you go out of your way in the interests of the customer but against internal policy, possibly leading to disciplinary action taken against you for doing something you shouldn't be doing.
In our line of work there are the odd occasions when a "technical tap" is required to get something moving, which can seem excessive - it's knowing what to hit and how hard that comes through experience ;)
 
All the last Engineer said to me was that there had been air in the line.....he didn't say anything to me about poor fittings.
Perhaps he should have advised me what he meant by that so I could react and get them replaced.

Meant to comment on this too - the tigerloop requires fittings to be air tight to work effectively, the guy must've checked and tightened fittings so there should be no further work required on this.

It can be hard when working for a large company to not be seen as a maverick if you go out of your way in the interests of the customer but against internal policy, possibly leading to disciplinary action taken against you for doing something you shouldn't be doing.
In our line of work there are the odd occasions when a "technical tap" is required to get something moving, which can seem excessive - it's knowing what to hit and how hard that comes through experience ;)

Yes casius66, me being a total layman for what it's worth I agree with every word above.

Actually, regarding Worcester as a company.....I have had reason to contact them about the boiler, including Engineers coming out....and the customer service on the telephone has been really, polite and pretty fast.

Even my 'moans to them about the way this particular job has been handled have received a polite reply that my concerns have been passed to the relevent people to look at, and I can expect a reply inside 10 days.

The bottom line for me though is that I was without hot water and heating for 5 days just because of some air in my pipe! :LOL:
 
I think Worcester have given you excellent service.

Contractually they are only liable for any defects in the boiler. That excludes your oil line, tank, oil, pump, taps, radiators and towel rail.

Despite your verbose and rambling emails, and threats to publish their responses on a public forum, they treated you better than they had any need to.

There is a another make which is Worcester's biggest competitor in oil boilers, and I can tell you that you wouldn't have got anywhere sending your emails to them.

The service you received was above and beyond the call of duty for a boiler manufacturer. And for this, you seem to want your diatribe against them to go on for days on this forum.

It is true that a skilled boiler installer/repairer would have been happy to address the entire system in terms of repairs. But they will not give you a 5 yr warranty on an oil boiler.

In contrast to the tone of your post, I think this is an excellent advertisement for Worcester Bosch, a company who do pride themselves on service. NB: Worcester accredited installers have had the 5yrs boiler warranty for a few years now, it is standard.
 
I used to be a Technical Support Engineer for WB's biggest competitor in the oil market we only delt with warranty problems we did not carry out routine servicing for the very reason that it would involve some liabillity for far more than the boiler! it is also a fact that my collegues and my own salary were a complete burden to the Company i.e. although we sorted out problems and restored customer confidence in our products, we did not actually make the Company a single penny!.

What I suspect has happened a WB is that they want their very expensive technical support engineers to have a revenue stream in the form of maintenance contracts - a big mistake in my view as they cannot do a comprehensive job of servicing a complete system to OFTEC standards, and as a result problems like the OP's will regularly occur!

it is also offensive to many installers and independant companies like myself who constantly loose market share to WB - with the householer beliveing that surely the manufacturer would be the best organisation to carry out planned maintenance - what a mis-conception!!! :evil:
 

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