Two separate electric sockets wired into one fuseway.
- Thread starter eternaloptimist1
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It does, but I rather presumed that the man who "only worked by the regs" wouldn't count the ('informative') Appendix 15 as being part of 'the regs', any more than the OSG is (we can agree with him about that one!).
I really don't see why Appendix 15 (and most of the other Appendices) should not be 'part of the regs' (i.e. 'normative', rather than just 'informative'), do you? It still wouldn't have to be 'exhaustive', merely illustrating examples of common things which were compliant. Indeed if (Heaven forbid!) the IET wanted to give it their blessing, then even the content of the OSG probably ought to be 'part of the regs'!
Kind Regards, John
I had a situation once involving a commericial building, all the supplies and meters were in a communial mains room along with a switchfuse for each feeding out into each area for each tenant to have their own board. There was also a landlords supply and DB in the mains cupboard. Air-con got fitted to the building but for some reason every unit was connected into the landlords board, this caused quite a bit of upset once it was discovered. The solution involved a load of small boards (one per unit) in the mains cupboard taped off the load side of each switchfuse in order to supply the relevant ac units.
Another contractor rocked up later on and told one of the tenants that it was wrong and you couldn't have two outgoings in one switch fuse like that, what he didn't know was that after the original mistake was discovered, was that it all got complicated (it was discovered before the invoice was paid) a M&E consultant ended up being dragged in to see it, and the solution had been put forward by them
Another contractor rocked up later on and told one of the tenants that it was wrong and you couldn't have two outgoings in one switch fuse like that, what he didn't know was that after the original mistake was discovered, was that it all got complicated (it was discovered before the invoice was paid) a M&E consultant ended up being dragged in to see it, and the solution had been put forward by them
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The difference between what and what? It just seems odd to me that they have decided to make virtually all of the appendices (even Appendix 4) only 'informative' - I really can't think why they've done it.
Kind Regards, John
What difference would there be in making it normative if it is not exhaustive?
The regs will never be completely exhaustive. However, I still don't see why what is in Appendix 15 could not be 'part of the regs', as examples of things which are compliant. Most sets of 'rules and regulations' I deal with are full of (non-exhaustive) 'examples' of things that would be acceptable (and sometimes even {non-exhaustive} examples of things which would not be acceptable).
Kind Regards, John
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Though the 14th Ed. made a damn good effort!
Because if it was Normative then it would mean that you had to comply with it rather than that it was a way of doing it.
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Yes the regulations back in days of the 14th had advice about how to fit cookers etc. It caused a lot of problem when I was an apprentice as we rarely got to see the regulations book when we asked it was why do you want to see that and foreman would give us his answer to our question.
When the 16th came out so did the idea of an exam to show we could read it. It was not the exam but actually getting the book in ones own hands and finding out how many half truths and lies had been told to us over the years.
One of the major things which the regulations said was manufacturers instructions should be followed. If one looks in the MK catalogue it states their sockets can take up to three wires. So it is not the regulations as such which says how many wires into each device but the manufacturer. I was also brought up with the idea one wire per hole I would have never considered building a board requiring more than one wire per hole and with maintenance free terminals one really has no option.
I have seen where 5 or 6 wires have been stuffed into a terminal where one of the wires has not been gripped so I would like MK say no more than 3 wires in most cases.
But as to sockets on a 16A MCB I have ran 10 sockets per MCB with each work bench on it's own MCB without any problems they would power computers and soldering irons etc and it was rare for them to trip.
I would agree the appendix is not really part of the regulations but it is included in the exam on the regulations so hard to say it's not a regulation. Mind you at one time I am sure the on site guide was also included in the exam. I have some thing in back of my mind that I could not use the unions version of on site guide and had to buy the IEE version because required in the exam?
It is actually harder working out what is not in the book to what is in it. I have a CITB study notes IEE regulations 15th Edition which shows things like 2 meter maximum distance between cooker and isolator. These limits I seem to remember were also given for sinks I remember measuring distance between sink and socket to see if too close, but today I have a socket in my house within 6" of the sink powering the waste disposal unit and as long as not where water is likely to splash there is no problem.
We have over the years realised errors one was putting the cooker isolator where in the case of fire on the cooker it can't be reached. But the electrician fitting my mothers hob put the three FCU's for hob, oven and extractor where one has to reach over the hob to reach them. I am not worried as the consumer unit for kitchen is in the kitchen just by the back door so really there was no need for cooker isolators anyway.
But point is like I am sure many electricians I open the box with the consumer unit in and never really bother to read all the manufacturers instructions then when bored I will read them and realise I have been doing some thing wrong for years.
When the 16th came out so did the idea of an exam to show we could read it. It was not the exam but actually getting the book in ones own hands and finding out how many half truths and lies had been told to us over the years.
One of the major things which the regulations said was manufacturers instructions should be followed. If one looks in the MK catalogue it states their sockets can take up to three wires. So it is not the regulations as such which says how many wires into each device but the manufacturer. I was also brought up with the idea one wire per hole I would have never considered building a board requiring more than one wire per hole and with maintenance free terminals one really has no option.
I have seen where 5 or 6 wires have been stuffed into a terminal where one of the wires has not been gripped so I would like MK say no more than 3 wires in most cases.
But as to sockets on a 16A MCB I have ran 10 sockets per MCB with each work bench on it's own MCB without any problems they would power computers and soldering irons etc and it was rare for them to trip.
I would agree the appendix is not really part of the regulations but it is included in the exam on the regulations so hard to say it's not a regulation. Mind you at one time I am sure the on site guide was also included in the exam. I have some thing in back of my mind that I could not use the unions version of on site guide and had to buy the IEE version because required in the exam?
It is actually harder working out what is not in the book to what is in it. I have a CITB study notes IEE regulations 15th Edition which shows things like 2 meter maximum distance between cooker and isolator. These limits I seem to remember were also given for sinks I remember measuring distance between sink and socket to see if too close, but today I have a socket in my house within 6" of the sink powering the waste disposal unit and as long as not where water is likely to splash there is no problem.
We have over the years realised errors one was putting the cooker isolator where in the case of fire on the cooker it can't be reached. But the electrician fitting my mothers hob put the three FCU's for hob, oven and extractor where one has to reach over the hob to reach them. I am not worried as the consumer unit for kitchen is in the kitchen just by the back door so really there was no need for cooker isolators anyway.
But point is like I am sure many electricians I open the box with the consumer unit in and never really bother to read all the manufacturers instructions then when bored I will read them and realise I have been doing some thing wrong for years.
Probably not worth it, with him having been a NIC spark, amongst whom refusal to think is often almost institutionalised.
Not if it were stated that these were examples of arrangements that would be compliant. The real problem is that it appears as an Appendix. If the same material appeared within the body of the regs, as 'examples', I don't think we would be having this discussion.
Appendix 4 being only 'informative' seems even more odd. A lot of the regulations relate to CCCs of cables but, if one is not obliged to use the figures in Appendix 4, what other figures would be acceptable for compliance with the various regs?
Kind Regards, John
Presumably data from the cable manufacturer as an example, or a design from an engineer allowing for all sorts of factors.
Indeed - but, although electrically fine (if done correctly/properly, using reliable data from reputable sources), would an installation based on such sources necessarily be considered BS7671-compliant? In particular, what if use of those sources resulted in selection of a cable which would not have been acceptable if one had used figures from Tables in Appendix 4 of BS7671?
Kind Regards, John
As you have already pointed out, Appendix 4 is only Informative. Therefore it does not form part of BS 7671:2008 (2015).
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