What are your thoughts on this please.

[ericmark]

@winston1 makes a good point, most accidents need more than one error to happen, and the courts have to decide who was responsible, some time the proportion the blame, other times the blame one person.

So if items need PAT testing once a year, and this fault is over a year old, who would get the blame if there was an accident like @winston1 relates to?
1) Person who fitted the plug.
2) Person who either tested the appliance or failed to have appliance tested.
3) Person who tested and inspected socket when installed or failed to test it.
4) Person who did the EICR or failed to have one done assuming socket outlet over 5 years old.

 

[JohnW2]

... So if items need PAT testing once a year, and this fault is over a year old, who would get the blame if there was an accident like @winston1 relates to?
... 2) Person who either tested the appliance or failed to have appliance tested.[/USER]

[COLOR=#000000]Do I take it that PATesting requires that every plug be opened up for inspection (assuming, of course, that it can be opened)?

Kind Regards, John[/COLOR]

 

[ericmark]

You make a good point, I was told fuse size needs checking and with some plugs there is a little window where you can see fuse colour which for 13A was brown, however found other sizes did not seem to keep to standard colours, so even if you could see, you still needed to remove cover and check for cig paper bridging fuse.

Doing a PATest after repair before returning to service spending 7 minutes to do it did not matter. But if only doing PATesting that's around 9 an hour, or around 70 a 8 hour day.

Since looking at around double that, and the automated tester had a set time per test, can't see many plugs being opened.

But if not inspected fully what is the point?

For me it was a fill in job, some thing you did when there were no other work. And yes I checked plugs, specially with 110 volt, common fault with class 1 was melted earth where some one had done some welding.

 

[JohnW2]

You make a good point, I was told fuse size needs checking and with some plugs there is a little window where you can see fuse colour which for 13A was brown ....

Quite.

If, in response to my question, you are implying that there is not a requirement to open every plug during PATesting, then one obviously cannot blame the person doing the testing for not detecting the sort of wiring error we are discussing - since no amount of 'testing' will reveal the error (unless the connected equipment is dismantled, which I assume is rarely, if ever, done)?

Kind Regards, John

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

I thought that there was an insulation resistance test done, which surely would have found this fault? Long time since I got involved.

 

[JohnW2]

I thought that there was an insulation resistance test done, which surely would have found this fault? Long time since I got involved.

An insulation resistance test between what and what? If all one has to work with are the pins of the plug, I don't see how swapping two of the connections to the plug will alter any IR measurements.

What am I missing?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Quite.

If, in response to my question, you are implying that there is not a requirement to open every plug during PATesting, then one obviously cannot blame the person doing the testing for not detecting the sort of wiring error we are discussing - since no amount of 'testing' will reveal the error (unless the connected equipment is dismantled, which I assume is rarely, if ever, done)?

Kind Regards, John

But on a standard PATest you test continuity of the earth passing around 25 amp through the earth connection, so would not show if wrong colours used both ends, but would show if earth pin not connected to chassis of equipment.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

Earth pin and the other two pins.

 

[JohnW2]

But on a standard PATest you test continuity of the earth passing around 25 amp through the earth connection, so would not show if wrong colours used both ends, but would show if earth pin not connected to chassis of equipment.

Yes, but that would only work with Class I equipment (well, things with exposed-conductive parts) , which is probably the minority.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Earth pin and the other two pins.

How would the IR between any two of those pins alter if one swapped two of connections to the plug?

I must still be missing something!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

But with class II or class III you would not get a belt if the neutral was connected to earth, the only thing it could do is trip the RCD or if the earth was not connected to a group of sockets cause some other item to become live, however it would not work either so does not really fall into same category.

 

[JohnW2]

But with class II or class III you would not get a belt if the neutral was connected to earth, ...

I wasn't suggesting that one would - I was merely talking about whether or not routine PATesting could detect a N/E reversal in the connections to the plug.

Are you saying that such a wiring error "does not matter" for a Class II appliance, as far as PATesting is concerned (even though, as you say, it would obviously trip any RCD/RCBO which was present) ?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I wasn't suggesting that one would - I was merely talking about whether or not routine PATesting could detect a N/E reversal in the connections to the plug.

Are you saying that such a wiring error "does not matter" for a Class II appliance, as far as PATesting is concerned (even though, as you say, it would obviously trip any RCD/RCBO which was present) ?

Kind Regards, John

With the PAT tester if the neutral and earth was swapped it would show on the earth continuity test, and if class II would show up when the item is powered up, at least it would have done on my PAT tester, so only wrong colours both ends would be missed. So reasonably sure if PAT tested the fault would show up.

 

[JohnW2]

With the PAT tester if the neutral and earth was swapped it would show on the earth continuity test ...

We've agreed about that, but such a continuity test is only possible (without dismantling the equipment) if the equipment has exposed-c-ps.

... and if class II would show up when the item is powered up, at least it would have done on my PAT tester ...

Is 'powering up' a routine part of PATesting?

If it were powered up, and assuming no RCD/RCBO (which would obviously reveal a problem), how would your tester have detected such an issue?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

The top of range Robin would have aborted the test, not so sure with the basic model I have never tried to see what it does. I think there is some thing to tell me if there is current imbalance it is a while since used, seem to remember it shows mA current to earth, but son has at the moment so can't check, but sure it does tell you if there is current passing through earth wire.