My freind has bought a house to do up and sell , I am plumbing it and he is altering some wiring , does he have to bring it to current regs or can he just move the sockets he wants to , I dont think he is putting in smoke alarms etc how many seperate fuses should he have on a two up two down house ? at the moment everything is dissconected , I said he should at least seperate all the sockets onto two rings possibly three , any help would be appreciated cheers.
Wiring an old house
- Thread starter tomy
- Start date
To late for that I went to the place for the first time today and everything is cut off , walls have gone etc etc. it looks like a buldozer has hit it , he isnt even sure where thing are going yet , he wants radiators in but isnt quite sure where he wants me to put them !!!!!
Any work he does needs to comply with todays standards and not impair the safety of the existing installation. The earthing/bonding needs to be checked/brought up to todays standards. The existing equipment needs to be checked to see if it can carry the additional load (including that of the distributor).
In order to do the work himself and remain within the law (if he is not a member of a competent person scheme) he must notify LABC before he starts. As it is a bit late now it is advisable to come clean and notify them before he goes much further.
In order to do the work himself and remain within the law (if he is not a member of a competent person scheme) he must notify LABC before he starts. As it is a bit late now it is advisable to come clean and notify them before he goes much further.
Is anyone going to say how many circuits there should be or are you all just going to spout regs and get on your high horses, Looks like I am wasting my time after all its only a diy site and if its a diy site why would anyone be asking any questions if everyone knew exactly what they were doing , I was only asking for a little help , not for anyone to chop their bloody arm off 
Firstly no one will tell you how many circuits you need because there is no definitive answer.
You need to decide what you want, how many points, any special dedicated circuits such as showers, water heaters, hobs, ovens, etc.
Secondly
Spark123 said:
This answers your question as best as any one can with the miniscule snippet of information you have provided us with so far.
Thirdly
You say the house is being done up to sell, you need to be aware of part p and its implications. It is far better to for you to find out now and be able to do something about it, rather than find out when you put the property on the market, and discover that you have f****d up.
We do not know if you have never heard of building regs, or if you wrote a thesus on them.
And fourthly you are correct. This is a DIY site. As you are seeking advice for commercial gain you are not a DIYer.
2-up 2-down
Quite likely:
2 rings (up and down) on RCD or RCBOs
2 lights (up and down)
1 immersion
1 cooker
1 shower on RCD or RCBO
1 Hot Tub/Sauna/garden fountain/whatever on RCD or RCBO
1 weatherproof garden socket for lawnmower on RCD or RCBO
1 or more spare circuits for future use
plus
MET usually in CU connected to supplier's earthing point (usually) or spike
Main bonding to Water & Gas (or oil)
Supplementary Equipotential bonding in bathroom
plus
1 x Test certificate plus inspection by Council Building Control
or
1 x Electrical Installation Certificate by suitable electrician.
Quite likely:
2 rings (up and down) on RCD or RCBOs
2 lights (up and down)
1 immersion
1 cooker
1 shower on RCD or RCBO
1 Hot Tub/Sauna/garden fountain/whatever on RCD or RCBO
1 weatherproof garden socket for lawnmower on RCD or RCBO
1 or more spare circuits for future use
plus
MET usually in CU connected to supplier's earthing point (usually) or spike
Main bonding to Water & Gas (or oil)
Supplementary Equipotential bonding in bathroom
plus
1 x Test certificate plus inspection by Council Building Control
or
1 x Electrical Installation Certificate by suitable electrician.
Thanks john this is the sort of answer that is usefull and if rf lighting and others read the post properly it is not my house I am the plumber working there, there is no immersion as its a combi , should that be on its own fuse or on the ring also should the kitchen have its own ring , its only a small kitchen with probably 4 double skts
tomy said:
Optional. In a little house like that you could get by quite well without but it is preferable to have separate circuit. Cost will be very little higher. I like to see kitchens equipped with vast numbers of outlets for appliances like washing m/c, dwr, t/drier, freezer, fridge, extractor hood, in addition to available sockets for small appliances like kettle, toaster, iron, mixer, espresso, radio, microwave, breadmaker, carving knife, phone charger
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Spark123 said:
Yeah, 123, feecky chucker if you ask me. Doesn't deserve the time of day behaving like that.
tomy said:
Hey Tomy!
Call yourself a plumber? And you don't know how to wire a combi?
I think this is a case of the blind leading the f'in blind here!!
22 - this will include 2 spare on each side of the split.tomy said:
Tomy, neither you nor your 'freind' appear to know what you are doing.
Pay somebody who does.
Pay somebody who does.
OK here's a plumbers reply, ps I understand you were mainly being humerous and not trying to alienate yourself but you almost managed total isolation. Best to coach more elaborate responses with more acurate line of question, based on the great advice you hd already been given under the circumstances.
Don't forget that most modern kitchen appliances go right back to the wall so any pipework has to go at bottom four inches (including gas) and nowadays washing machine taps either go underneath the washer or in the adjacent unit.
Control of electrical point for kitchen appliances has to be such that the appliance doesn't have to be removed to operate it.
ASSUMING it is not a TT earthing system (wherein whole installation has to be rcd protected) (three main systems in use are TT (tera tera, where there is a spike in the ground at the substation and a ground spike at your house, very poor and you have to pass water on your spike to get it to pass an earth loop impedance test, so as the EEBADS (earthed equipotential bonding and automatic disconnection of supply) safety system is less effective on such installations full rcd protection is essential), PME or TN-CS (Tera Neutral? CS stands for can't see, because the earth connection is hidden in the cutout on armour coming into house where earth and neutral are combined, they are also combined at the substation and spiked at many places along the way) and TNS, which conversely you see, in this case what you will see is an earth lead connected to the armour of the SWC coming into the house, this armour is earthed at the substation. So inspect yours and see what you have. It is also not unusual in semi remote areas to find a system that was once TT and is now pme (tn-cs) ps pme stands for something multiple earth, most electricians use the term pme rather than tn-cs but it's the same type of earth.
In whatever case though there are variations for which you need at the basic level an onsite guide (search amazon for one), in most situations if your meter tails are the usual 25mm and you have a 60 amp or 100 amp board's fuse, and a tncs or tns earthing system, you are on a starter for 10. Now you need to buy a brass MET (main earth terminal) put your supplied earth (which should be in 16mm, if not you need the board to change it) into it, and using 10mm earth take it to incoming services which are metalic (typically gas and water) attach with correct clamp (in wet areas use one with blue or green stripe according to pipe size, which MUST have safety label, which stands as a warning to ignorant house developers and their plumber m8's not to remove it, or to put it back afterwards at least. This 10mm must be in a continuous unbroken radial or seperate spurs, preferably be joined within 600mm of the service entering the building.
Bathroom bonding also depends, for which you need the big brown book not just the little one, but in the main it's 4mm, and you take it from every extraneous metal part (except heating pipe drops that just go to plastic under the floor, radiators towel rails and soap trays) to every cpc of every electrical appliance (that isn't SELV, seperated extra low voltage) within the zones.
Right I think that's most of EEBADS covered, but don't forget that boilers are a weard situation which nobody in the field seems to understand correctly, at least not round here, study my question on boiler bonding for the correct way.
Bear in mind that sockets need 0.4s disconnection time cutoff device, and outside lights or anything outside the equipotential zone (outside the house, is no longer protected by the EEBADS system so needs greater level of safety)
BUT anyway you will be using tyupe B mcb's, or you are really as dumb as your first question informed some of the guys here whose back you put up.
For cheap job (which is what your m8 is wanting I am quite sure), Just put combi on a spur off the kitchen ring, use downstairs ring for kitchen and combi on a 30mA rcd. Upstairs ring doesn't need rcd unless there is a likelyhood of a shower in a bedroom at a future date in which case plan ahead, but I would probably rcd protect all sockets nowadays, as I can't see a downside. I supose a table lamp blowing so nuisance tripping is the downside.
Provide a 10mm feed for an electric shower so that they won't get so irate waiting two weeks for a plumber to turn up and fix their combi. RCD protect this.
This is just the brushing the surface workaday stuff you should know before you even think about it.
Don't forget that most modern kitchen appliances go right back to the wall so any pipework has to go at bottom four inches (including gas) and nowadays washing machine taps either go underneath the washer or in the adjacent unit.
Control of electrical point for kitchen appliances has to be such that the appliance doesn't have to be removed to operate it.
ASSUMING it is not a TT earthing system (wherein whole installation has to be rcd protected) (three main systems in use are TT (tera tera, where there is a spike in the ground at the substation and a ground spike at your house, very poor and you have to pass water on your spike to get it to pass an earth loop impedance test, so as the EEBADS (earthed equipotential bonding and automatic disconnection of supply) safety system is less effective on such installations full rcd protection is essential), PME or TN-CS (Tera Neutral? CS stands for can't see, because the earth connection is hidden in the cutout on armour coming into house where earth and neutral are combined, they are also combined at the substation and spiked at many places along the way) and TNS, which conversely you see, in this case what you will see is an earth lead connected to the armour of the SWC coming into the house, this armour is earthed at the substation. So inspect yours and see what you have. It is also not unusual in semi remote areas to find a system that was once TT and is now pme (tn-cs) ps pme stands for something multiple earth, most electricians use the term pme rather than tn-cs but it's the same type of earth.
In whatever case though there are variations for which you need at the basic level an onsite guide (search amazon for one), in most situations if your meter tails are the usual 25mm and you have a 60 amp or 100 amp board's fuse, and a tncs or tns earthing system, you are on a starter for 10. Now you need to buy a brass MET (main earth terminal) put your supplied earth (which should be in 16mm, if not you need the board to change it) into it, and using 10mm earth take it to incoming services which are metalic (typically gas and water) attach with correct clamp (in wet areas use one with blue or green stripe according to pipe size, which MUST have safety label, which stands as a warning to ignorant house developers and their plumber m8's not to remove it, or to put it back afterwards at least. This 10mm must be in a continuous unbroken radial or seperate spurs, preferably be joined within 600mm of the service entering the building.
Bathroom bonding also depends, for which you need the big brown book not just the little one, but in the main it's 4mm, and you take it from every extraneous metal part (except heating pipe drops that just go to plastic under the floor, radiators towel rails and soap trays) to every cpc of every electrical appliance (that isn't SELV, seperated extra low voltage) within the zones.
Right I think that's most of EEBADS covered, but don't forget that boilers are a weard situation which nobody in the field seems to understand correctly, at least not round here, study my question on boiler bonding for the correct way.
Bear in mind that sockets need 0.4s disconnection time cutoff device, and outside lights or anything outside the equipotential zone (outside the house, is no longer protected by the EEBADS system so needs greater level of safety)
BUT anyway you will be using tyupe B mcb's, or you are really as dumb as your first question informed some of the guys here whose back you put up.
For cheap job (which is what your m8 is wanting I am quite sure), Just put combi on a spur off the kitchen ring, use downstairs ring for kitchen and combi on a 30mA rcd. Upstairs ring doesn't need rcd unless there is a likelyhood of a shower in a bedroom at a future date in which case plan ahead, but I would probably rcd protect all sockets nowadays, as I can't see a downside. I supose a table lamp blowing so nuisance tripping is the downside.
Provide a 10mm feed for an electric shower so that they won't get so irate waiting two weeks for a plumber to turn up and fix their combi. RCD protect this.
This is just the brushing the surface workaday stuff you should know before you even think about it.
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