Chasing route around a corner / "from one zone to anoth

[voithkingsley]

Hiya Ladies and Gents

Let me just start off by saying, could we please keep this discussion / debate friendly please... just for arguments sake (not that I'm stereotyping anyone)!

Right... well I fully understand about chasing cables into walls and all the related 'do dar' along with it. Safe zones, chasing depth, capping, etc. etc...

But there is one thing I can't get my head around, and that's moving from one safe one to another.
If that makes any sense?

What I'm trying to describe is, for example if someone was chasing vertically down a nice block wall around 1m away from "being out the safe zone" / end of the wall doing things as normal, adds a nice flush mounted back box and socket in line with the new chasing for his/her nice new ring final (or whatever configuration they plan to use)... and then routes another chase horizontally going right or left until it's right up into the corner of the wall and then carrying on in the same direction across into the second wall/zone back so it's into the safe zone for the new wall and then another socket.

Is their chasing route complaint?

...I mean, your in a safe zone, doing things as you should, but then after your first couple of sockets you chase off horizontally to another set of outlets on a joining wall. Oh and I mean if you are only using CAPPING / OVAL CONDUIT.

I've never seen it done anywhere before so I didn't think it was allowed.

Until I managed to get the image below. Not exactly what I was describing but still exactly the same prinicable with regards to moving from one "wall / zone to another".
I'm not even sure if capping was used in that image (but I understand that's a whole different thing).

What I'm trying to get at here, is if the chasing isn't running directly in a "non safe zone" but just passing through it horizontally. Is this allowed?

I hope your understanding my question and not getting all confused here. Please excuse my poor descriptive capabilities

Anyway, thanks in advance for any good information / answers provided in your feedback.

Untitled

• voithkingsley
• 10 Jul 2013
• 1

 

[riveralt]

The vertical and horizontal chasing and cabling shown in the picture appears to be within the regulations - assuming, for the vertical section, it is within 150mm of an angle formed by two adjacent walls or partitions - 522.6.101.(v)

See wiki here:
//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:installation_techniques:walls
There will also likely be an RCD requirement.

BTW capping is not a requirement.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

As the photo you have uploaded complies to safe zones (cable within 150mm of the joining internal corner and horizontal chase from this to accessory) you have no issues with that set up.
The zones are not strictly between pairs or groups of accessories, as there can be a single accessory and providing you go directly vertical and/or horizontal from it (same wall that is) and in to the areas where walls and ceilings join (150mm rule) then that would be in compliance.
The regulations do indicate that the cable routed within these zones should be connected to the accessories, so that would indicate that the zone should only be used for circuits that have accessories within these given zones.
So no routing a lighting circuit within the safe zone of a socket circuit, unless it has an associated and connected accessory for that light circuit.

Additional information regarding chase and buried cables would be the requirement of 30mA RCD and the permitted depth of chase in to the skin/leaf of wall.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

A drawing of the route you described rather than a photo of something not what you were describing would be useful....

 

[JohnW2]

The regulations do indicate that the cable routed within these zones should be connected to the accessories, so that would indicate that the zone should only be used for circuits that have accessories within these given zones. ... So no routing a lighting circuit within the safe zone of a socket circuit, unless it has an associated and connected accessory for that light circuit.

That is, indeed, what the regulations say, but from the point of view of safety, a safe zone is a safe zone. A screw, nail or drill does not know anything about the function of a cable it might hit, merely that there could be cables (of whatever nature) within the safe zones defined by visible accessories.

Kind Regards, John

 

[voithkingsley]

Thanks for the great response guys,I am understanding it more now haha.

I have got an image I badly edited that tries to describe what I'm saying but to say "it's not very good" is an understatement.

I'll upload it anyway, although sorry for the lack of good software over here.

It's pretty much the same thing as the previous image but has a few sockets in line with the vertical chase before the chasing runs off horizontally around the 90° corner and then staying horizontally to a group of accessories (3 more sockets).

Like you have been saying, all the accessories and vertical chasing routes are in safe zones, it's just that the horizontal one is passing through the corner of the two walls where they join.

Untitled

• voithkingsley
• 10 Jul 2013
• 1

 

[Taylortwocities]

Nothing wrong with your cable route. The vertical and horizontal chases are denoted by the socket boxes.

Electrically, though, will all of those sockets be part of the ring?

 

[voithkingsley]

Thank you for the information.

And yes, all 'outlets' in the image will be part of the ring and capping will be used as good practice.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

That is, indeed, what the regulations say, but from the point of view of safety, a safe zone is a safe zone. A screw, nail or drill does not know anything about the function of a cable it might hit, merely that there could be cables (of whatever nature) within the safe zones defined by visible accessories.

Kind Regards, John

But for instance if someone decided they no longer required the socket circuit and removed those accessories or altered the position of them and the socket circuit cable, you then are left with a light circuit cable that is no longer in a safe zone!
So you don't do it!

 

[voithkingsley]

That is, indeed, what the regulations say, but from the point of view of safety, a safe zone is a safe zone. A screw, nail or drill does not know anything about the function of a cable it might hit, merely that there could be cables (of whatever nature) within the safe zones defined by visible accessories.

Kind Regards, John

But for instance if someone decided they no longer required the socket circuit and removed those accessories or altered the position of them and the socket circuit cable, you then are left with a light circuit cable that is no longer in a safe zone!
So you don't do it!

How would the light circuit cable not be in a safe zone anymore?
It would be at completely the other end of the wall 150mm away from the edge and at a relivant height.

Surely modifying the ring final circuit in the way you are saying would only change that circuit. Not another completely unrelated one the a few meters across the wall but in the same zone?

 

[JohnW2]

But for instance if someone decided they no longer required the socket circuit and removed those accessories or altered the position of them and the socket circuit cable, you then are left with a light circuit cable that is no longer in a safe zone! ... So you don't do it!

Fair enough - I suppose it's always possible to hypothesise about future changes to an installation which might introduce problems if those making the future changes do not act appropriately!

Do I take it that you are not happy to use the 150mm vertical strip of wall in the corner of a room as a safe zone because someone might come along in the future and remove one of the walls, thereby removing the safe zone?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

How would the light circuit cable not be in a safe zone anymore? It would be at completely the other end of the wall 150mm away from the edge and at a relivant height. Surely modifying the ring final circuit in the way you are saying would only change that circuit. Not another completely unrelated one the a few meters across the wall but in the same zone?

He's talking about a situation in which all the visible accessories (on the socket circuit) which had been creating safe zones were removed, but a lighting circuit cable was left in what had been those safe zones when the accessories existed. No-one would then have any reason to suspect that there was a cable buried there.

His argument is strictly correct (and, in any event, that's what the regs say). However, as I've asked him, how far can/should one reasonably go in trying to predict and pre-empt whatever changes may be made to/in the house at some point in the distant future.

Kind Regards, John

 

[riveralt]

Nothing wrong with your cable route. The vertical and horizontal chases are denoted by the socket boxes.

Electrically, though, will all of those sockets be part of the ring?

Thank you for the information.

And yes, all 'outlets' in the image will be part of the ring and capping will be used as good practice.

End of story

Yet another example of JohnW and sadly others hijacking a relatively straight forward question and answer session and starting to create doubt and confusion where there need be none.
I was applauding the fact that I thought he had mended his ways with the creation of several 'new' topics over the past few days - even one that he linked from an OP's question. Perhaps old habits take longer to overcome.

 

[JohnW2]

Yet another example of JohnW and sadly others hijacking a relatively straight forward question and answer session ...

See response in this new thread.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Yet another example of JohnW and sadly others hijacking a relatively straight forward question and answer session and starting to create doubt and confusion where there need be none.

I hope you are not indicating that I sadly did any hi-jacking, I personally thought my reply was straight forward and informative. Just because I responded to another post by someone other than the OP, does not indicate the post was hi-jacked as it was relative to the question regarding safe zones, and sadly or not my information is not only correct but also presented in a way to reduce any confusion with regards to hi-jacking safe zones with cables that are not connected to the circuit. Do you not think this is not worth mentioning, to avoid any confusion?