EICR unsatisfactory! rewiring recommended

[Jo4n]

Hello,

Had an EICR done on a property I am looking to buy. It is a 1930s 3 bedroom detached house. The electrician recommended that full rewiring be carried out which may cost around GBP8500. The report shows quite a few (7) C2 items but no C1 (items shown below). I was informed that the wiring is about 40 years old.

1. Shower circuit is tap off in a 2.5 cable that feeds spur switch which does the shaver point C2
2. fuse board no RCD protection C2
3. fuse board (DB1) requires replacement not fire rated. (under the stairs) C2
4. No power is present at the immersion switch further investigation required FI
5. Kitchen light is on the kitchen sockets FI
6. Utility light and the light under the stairs is on kitchen sockets FI
7. Gas meter is not earthed C2
8. Main earth is a 6mm earth C3
9. Light fitting in utility has a burning smell when turned on C2
10. x9 spot lights in the kitchen are not fire rated C2
11. Socket in back bedroom the screws are corroded C2
12. Water is not earthed C2

Are these issues more or less common and whether needs immediate attention or I can sort out later on? Also does the rewiring cost sound sensible?

Any help appreciated. Thanks

 

[EFLImpudence]

1. Is it just a power shower?
2. Should be C3 - improvement recommended.
3. Should be C3 - improvement recommended.
4. Fault somewhere.
5. Not a problem if done correctly - FI
6. Not a problem if done correctly - FI
7. Not supposed to be earthed - might need bonding if it is earthed by the ground. Fundamental mistake showing lack of knowledge.
8. Probably should be 10mm²
9. Fair enough
10. Don't have to be fire rated if above is your property.
11. Don't see what difference that makes.
12. Not supposed to be earthed - might need bonding if it is earthed by the ground. Fundamental mistake showing lack of knowledge.

Don't use him again.

 

[Jo4n]

1. Is it just a power shower?
2. Should be C3 - improvement recommended.
3. Should be C3 - improvement recommended.
4. Fault somewhere.
5. Not a problem if done correctly - FI
6. Not a problem if done correctly - FI
7. Not supposed to be earthed - might need bonding if it is earthed by the ground. Fundamental mistake showing lack of knowledge.
8. Probably should be 10mm²
9. Fair enough
10. Don't have to be fire rated if above is your property.
11. Don't see what difference that makes.
12. Not supposed to be earthed - might need bonding if it is earthed by the ground. Fundamental mistake showing lack of knowledge.

Don't use him again.

Thanks. This is very useful to know. Any rough figures about rewiring cost for a 3 bedroom detached property near London?
I am wondering whether we need to sort anything out immediately.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

1. Not strictly an issue, if shower itself is adequately provided for. Power taken by shaver socket is not going to overload cable.
7. Should someone who doesn't know difference between earthing and bonding be doing an EICR?
9. Might just be dust if not used for a while. Should be FI.
11. Big Deal
12. Should someone who doesn't know difference between earthing and bonding be doing an EICR?

Others: As EFLI said.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Someone who lives in the area will have more idea about the price.

Immediately?

4. If you want to use the immersion.
The FIs and determine whether bonding is required to gas and water supplies.
Main Earthing Conductor depending on your installation.

 

[aptsys]

Reiterating not to use or recommend that electrician again.
Many points there show a lack of understanding, or deception. No.3 is particularly a salesperson tactic.

Cost is dependant on many factors and we do not know the spec, however £8.5k seems high.

 

[sparkwright]

Hello,

Had an EICR done on a property I am looking to buy. It is a 1930s 3 bedroom detached house. The electrician recommended that full rewiring be carried out which may cost around GBP8500. The report shows quite a few (7) C2 items but no C1 (items shown below). I was informed that the wiring is about 40 years old.

1. Shower circuit is tap off in a 2.5 cable that feeds spur switch which does the shaver point C2
2. fuse board no RCD protection C2
3. fuse board (DB1) requires replacement not fire rated. (under the stairs) C2
4. No power is present at the immersion switch further investigation required FI
5. Kitchen light is on the kitchen sockets FI
6. Utility light and the light under the stairs is on kitchen sockets FI
7. Gas meter is not earthed C2
8. Main earth is a 6mm earth C3
9. Light fitting in utility has a burning smell when turned on C2
10. x9 spot lights in the kitchen are not fire rated C2
11. Socket in back bedroom the screws are corroded C2
12. Water is not earthed C2

Are these issues more or less common and whether needs immediate attention or I can sort out later on? Also does the rewiring cost sound sensible?

Any help appreciated. Thanks

That sort of drivel does not necessarily warrant a full rewire.

If it was written out better I suspect we could tell easily how to rectify the problems easily without a full rewire.

 

[flameport]

Shower circuit is tap off in a 2.5 cable that feeds spur switch which does the shaver point C2
If the 'spur switch' has a fuse in it, and the shower is less than 3kW there is no problem here.

fuse board no RCD protection C2
fuse board (DB1) requires replacement not fire rated. (under the stairs) C2
A new consumer unit will resolve both of those. Not being fire rated is C3 unless there are signs of overheating or damage.
No RCD in a consumer unit does not require any code - it's not a requirement that a consumer unit has an RCD - it's the circuits and the things connected to them which may require RCDs.
If there really is no RCD at all, there should be several other things listed such as lighting circuit without RCD protection, socket outlets that can be used outside with no RCD, wiring concealed in walls with no RCD, circuits supplying a bathroom without RCD protection, etc.

No power is present at the immersion switch further investigation required FI
Perhaps it's been disconnected? Or it's an E7 system which was tested in the daytime. In any event, not a safety issue. Hardly worth mentioning.

Kitchen light is on the kitchen sockets FI
Utility light and the light under the stairs is on kitchen sockets FI
An unusual arrangement, but a 3A FCU could resolve that - there may already be such a thing.

Gas meter is not earthed C2
Water is not earthed C2
Neither item requires earthing. Bonding perhaps, but that's an entirely different thing.

Main earth is a 6mm earth C3
It can be replaced, it's a piece of wire from the incoming supply to the consumer unit.

Light fitting in utility has a burning smell when turned on C2
New light fitting. Or clean the dust out of it.

x9 spot lights in the kitchen are not fire rated C2
Replace with some that are, assuming they really need to be fire rated.

Socket in back bedroom the screws are corroded C2
So what who cares? No regulation applies, no code appropriate.
New screws would cost approximately 1p.

full rewiring be carried out which may cost around GBP8500

A rewire could cost that much, but equally it could be significantly less. All depends on what specification is being quoted for.

What are the test results for the circuits like?

 

[ericmark]

The points have been well listed by others, there are many ways to correct which do not need full rewire, what is important is if cables have been overloaded, or if rubber, once overloaded the resistance to earth can drop and there is no other way other than re-wire, and rubber cables crumble with age, but unless that has happened then wiring simply does not wear out, so there may be some work required, but that does not mean a re-wire.

There are many ways to correct faults, in my old house I used emergency lights to counter the problem of sockets and lights on the same circuit, however only for the stairs and garage, the latter as that was where the fuse box was, so you want light to see and turn back on.

RCD protection is a double edge sword, as although it protects from shock, it can also cause damage to food in freezers, the more RCD's fitted the less is lost when one trips, and what you want is if you have a problem with sockets that this does not cause loss of the lights in the same room, also no need in the event of a failure to run extension leads up/down stairs. I like RCD protection, but it is not just a simple follow rule book, it needs some thought as to how to split, so a consumer unit can cost £60 to £400 depending on how many RCD's are fitted, plus labour which is the same however many RCD's are fitted, so to upgrade the electrical system needs some debate between electrician and owner to strike a balance.

However when buying a house the buyer often wants to try and reduce price by showing faults.

 

[plugwash]

I don't see anything on the list that justifies a rewire. Some remedial works certainly but not a rewire.

The main reasons I see for rewiring houses are.

1. You want to change the installation so much that it becomes easier to start again (only you can answer this one).
2. The cable is old and degrated (PVC cable usually lasts practically forever, rubber not so much). If your installation is "only" 40 years old then it's almost certainly PVC cable and is probablly fine unless it was a bad batch.
3. There are so many horrible bodges that once you remove them there is little left.
4. The installation has been damaged in some way.

Also the list is sloppy both in terms of electrical terminology and frankly general english.

Shower circuit is tap off in a 2.5 cable that feeds spur switch which does the shaver point C2

Need some clarification on what is meant by this. Does he mean there is a correctly sized circuit feeding the shower but then there is a tap off it feeding the shaver point and he considers that tap-off not to have adequate over-current protection?

If so the easiest fix is probably to put the shaver socket on the lighting circuit.

fuse board no RCD protection C2
fuse board (DB1) requires replacement not fire rated. (under the stairs) C2

Arguments over how non-compliance with the recently introduced regulation about consumer unit materials should be applied to existing installations aside the reality is if there is no RCD protection at all it's past time for a new CU.

The principle most electricians work to is that any new work should comply with the latest regs. The thing is there is no reg that says "CUs must have RCDs". Instead the regulations talk about what stuff most be RCD protected (and in a domestic environment the "what stuff" has been trending towards "pretty much everything" for a while).

What this means is it gets awkward to do any work on installations that don't have RCD protection in place. There can be workarounds such as RCD sockets, RCD FCUs and special cable installation methods.

No power is present at the immersion switch further investigation required FI

I'd want to do some further investigation on this one. Probablly starting by looking for disconnected cables near the CU.

Kitchen light is on the kitchen sockets FI
Utility light and the light under the stairs is on kitchen sockets FI

Again you should investigate this. It's ok to run lights off a socket circuit, but there should be a fuse. If there is one you want to find out where it is, if there isn't one you want to add one.

Gas meter is not earthed C2
Water is not earthed C2

I presume he was being sloppy on his terminology and was refering to main equipotential bonding.

How much of a pain this is to sort depends on how difficult it is to route the bonding cables.

Main earth is a 6mm earth C3

Should probably be up-sized to 10mm if possible, Sometimes though the main earth is soldered to the suppliers cable, in which case there may not be much you or your electrician can do about it's size.

Light fitting in utility has a burning smell when turned on C2

Definately needs investigating and rectifying

x9 spot lights in the kitchen are not fire rated C2

Only an issue if the kitchen ceiling is a fire barrier.

Socket in back bedroom the screws are corroded C2

Meh, might be worth taking the socket off to see if there are any other issues, but a bit of corrosion on some screws wouldn't massively concern me on it's own.

 

[chivers67]

Reiterating not to use or recommend that electrician again.
Many points there show a lack of understanding, or deception. No.3 is particularly a salesperson tactic.

Cost is dependant on many factors and we do not know the spec, however £8.5k seems high.

I agree with this too, 8.5K sounds very high unless it's inner London where parking and other costs have to be taken into consideration. i'd expect it to cost half that outside the M25

 

[R Benny Waered]

Plugwash - great real world answers above mate. Can i just ask about this one though:

x9 spot lights in the kitchen are not fire rated C2
Only an issue if the kitchen ceiling is a fire barrier.

I changed all my trendy 2005 hot lamp 12v light fittings at considerable cost to fire rated LED ones and ditched all those Chinese transformers in a dry combustible space.... But where in the EICR regs does it ask a spark to regulate fire barriers? Or is that just a (valid) C3 for you?

The guy I had was giving a C2 for the gaps around a couple of 15mm pipes going through a ceiling as prejudicing a fire barrier - and this is NOTHING to do with a spark/his guiding regs!!!

Cheers

 

[ericmark]

@R Benny Waered has made a good point, EICR means electrical installation not fire protection. However our book does state what consideration must be given to fire prevention.

With the installation certificate we state it complies with BS7671 current at time of design, with an EICR we likely don't know the date of design, we should be given all past inspections to see if there is any degrading, so we should know design date, but often for some reason owners don't produce the past certificates. To be frank in 1979 when we moved into our brand new house, we were never given any electrical documents.

So big questions are what is potential dangerous? If we say a house built in 1979 does not need a RCD, neither does one built in 2019, however if we passed a house built 2019 with a non operational RCD it would be said we were negligent, and we should have failed the premises.

Why you may ask, answer is in 2008 the earthing rules for bathrooms changed, so a bathroom wired to 2008 rules would be considered potentially dangerous if no working RCD. Be this because it is faulty, or because some one has removed it as did not like it tripping all the time, for a house designed after 2008 no RCD has to be C2.

So anyone testing without paperwork would need to assume part could be wired to BS7671:2008 or latter, so since he does not know if any part wired to editions asking for RCD protection or not, it is reasonable to issue a C2 where no paperwork provided.

But where paperwork is provided and it shows no work done after 2001 when RCD's were required for some circuits, then issuing a C3 is also reasonable.

But which is up to the guy doing the EICR, it is his personal opinion, right or wrong, and unless paperwork was provided can't really blame some one working to BS7671:2018.

Don't get me wrong, I think from what you say he gave wrong codes, but the EICR was never designed as a document required before you can let property, when I did my C&G2391 I was not told what I must pass, yes told what was a fail, but not what should be ignored. The government to me was wrong not producing a proper dwelling test procedure, and doing it on the cheap by saying an EICR is required without first training people to do the test to the standard they want, just like they did with a MOT.

This "potentially dangerous" without defining what "potentially dangerous" is, is likely to cause many problems, even cause homelessness where some electrician says the home is uninhabitable due to his coding and the owner decides to call it a day, and to use it as an excuse to stop being a landlord. In Wales because of this it only applies to multi occupancy dwellings. They were worried it would remove houses from the rental market.

But end of day can't blame the electrician, the blame is down to way government has decided to tattle the problem of sub standard housing.

 

[JohnW2]

With the installation certificate we state it complies with BS7671 current at time of design, with an EICR we likely don't know the date of design.

Whilst that is true, it doesn't really matter, does it, since an EICR is undertaken to determine whether an installation complies with regulations which are current at the date of the EICR, regardless of when the installation was designed or installed?

..with an EICR we likely don't know the date of design, we should be given all past inspections to see if there is any degrading, so we should know design date, but often for some reason owners don't produce the past certificates.

Whilst monitoring serial changes in something over time can be a valuable part of a maintenance policy, it is not relevant to an EICR. If an installation 'as is' is compliant with current regs at the time of an EICR, then it 'passes', even if some characteristics have 'degraded' relative to some time point in the past.

Kind Regards, John

 

[R Benny Waered]

That helps justify a few things Eric - thanks - I understand that electricians need to cover their backs when there are genuine reasons or a lack of readily available info.

In my case though I told the spark that the building was converted to 4 flats some 18 years ago with all new wiring - he asked me for paperwork on electrics but of course there is none for a (then) private flat. On completion of conversion the place was signed off by building regs, the developer and my mortgage company's survey. That's it. There was no paperwork to be had. No one has paperwork from 18 years ago! The place wasn't then touched for 15 years where he added the RCD for us (NOT a C2 mind...) and made a few elective improvements on my request. No real doc for that either really - just a scrappy invoice! I have a huge paper trail for my annual HMO certificates mind as that was regs long ago...

God its such a mess - and I get grief and have now given this spark (deserved) grief now. We should all be earning an honest living from our businesses and helping each other out not wasting time fighting each other and regs. The intent of the regs is good but the execution a bloody mess.