32A Commando plug to BS1363 socket

[JohnW2]

True, I should ask @austin99 is the commando socket fed from a supply with loss of PEN detection.

I suppose so - but, other than in the context of EV chargers, does anyone have such protection in a domestic installation?

Loss of PEN detection I suppose was not as important for something used outdoors for a short length of time, but an EV is charged for a long time.

Literally true, but I nevertheless still think that the risks associated with a 'lost PEN' are probably incredibly small, even with EV charging -= certainly in comparison with the risks (to life and limb) when driving the EV!

 

[ericmark]

Literally true, but I nevertheless still think that the risks associated with a 'lost PEN' are probably incredibly small, even with EV charging -= certainly in comparison with the risks (to life and limb) when driving the EV!

We seem to have two threads, about completely different things, but with the same response, do we really think it is likely to happen, we are talking about a risk assessment.

 

[plugwash]

OK, we have to stand back and ask, are we worried about the regulations?

I have never seen any relavent standard for adapter cords like this. I don't think one could reasonably consider an adapter cord to be an "installation", and afaict the BS EN 60309 and BS 1363 standards limit themselves to talking about the connectors themselves with little to nothing stated how they should (or should not) be used.

There is a section of BS1363 about adapters, but it's scope is limited to adapters that plug into BS1363 sockets, not adapters that plug into other socket types and accept BS1363 plugs.

Perhaps that is inevitable, that adapter cords may be used in many different environments that would lead to different risk assesments with a one-size fits all set of rules being either too restrictive in some scenarios or not restrictive enough in others.

Good advice. However, being pragmatic, since 2-output 13A adapters without fuses are allowed, a 2-gang trailing lead would be 'no worse' than that.

It's "worse" in the sense that someone who knows better than to put more than 13A of load on a 13A socket may still see a 32A plug and two 13A sockets and think it's ok to hook up two 13A loads.

 

[JohnW2]

It's "worse" in the sense that someone who knows better than to put more than 13A of load on a 13A socket may still see a 32A plug and two 13A sockets and think it's ok to hook up two 13A loads.

Well, for a start, we've not been told what is protecting the 32A socket or what cable it's wired with, so it presumably is quite possible that your someone would be right in thinking that it was OK to hook up two 13A loads, isn't it? Indeed, I would have thought it fairly likely that the socket would be OK for 26A wouldn't it?

Whatever (and this is the point I was making), in terms of the thinking of the someone, it's not materially different from their thinking that it's OK to hook up two 13A loads to an (unfused) 2-gang trailing socket or (unfused) 2-way 13A adapter that was fed from a 13A plug, is it?

 

[plugwash]

Well, for a start, we've not been told what is protecting the 32A socket or what cable it's wired with,

We haven't no, but one assumes a 32A socket will probably be fed from a 32A protective device and suitable cabling.

Indeed, I would have thought it fairly likely that the socket would be OK for 26A wouldn't it?

Therin lies the problem the 32A socket should be fine to supply 26A but the adapter posted in the ebay listed is constructed using a 2 gang "portable socket outlet" (aka extension socket).

BS1363, frustratingly doesn't talk about total current rating for multiple socket outlets. However, it does talk about currents to be used during temperature rise tests and "portable socket outlets" (aka extension sockets) are only required to be tested at 14A total (compared to 20A total for regular double sockets), so I think we can assume they intended such items to be rated at "13A total".

I think a "weak in the middle" adapter is worse than a mere "unfused" adapter. Specifically I think it's fairly likely that even someone with electrical knowledge but perhaps not up to speed on the minutae of BS1363 would see the 32A plug, see the 2.5mm² (25A) flex but miss the fact that the adapter was constructed using a portable socket outlet.

If you want to safely run 2x13A loads of a 32A socket you would need to construct an adapter in some other manner.

 

[ericmark]

@austin99 found a lead so it does seem in many ways a pointless discussion. I have wondered how much the earth voltage would rise with a loss of PEN? I think the problem is, when we started using PME the loads were reasonably even phase to phase, but today we have EVs which put a high load on the system, and solar panels which put a low or even negative load on the system.

If the EV and solar trip out due to over/under voltage, then a damaged PEN will not cause massive swings of PEN voltage, but of course the DNO is unlikely to admit that is why they want solar and EV supplies to auto disconnect if the voltage goes out of spec.

How often do we check the voltage, and how long would it take to realised there was a PEN fault, I don't mean total loss, but somewhere a poor connection so it swings more than it should, I note my voltage

every time I look to see how my solar is doing, and I know I have an earth rod, which one would hope limits the swing should a PEN be lost, look at google maps, and we can see the solar installs, but we can't see EV chargers as easy, and next door to my for example has an EV charge point, but does not have an EV, so it is only used when he has one on test. And from google maps working out if solar or water panels on the roof is not easy. This house

I know there are failed water solar panels, as it was father-in-laws house, so we can only guess on the phase imbalance and so the result with a poor PEN conductor.

So are we told we must have loss of PEN detection for safety reasons, or are we told to have it so the load with a poor PEN is more even?

The PME name means multiple earths, I know this may not be the case with TN-C-S although we tend to reguard the two as being the same, but with multiple earths, without a high load on one phase, or minus load on one phase, the voltage should not swing too much, what would interest me, is with smart meters, how fast would the DNO know when a PEN is lost or damaged?

 

[SUNRAY]

This style of socket is marked as TOTAL LOAD NOT TO EXCEED 13A the Masterplug version comes with instructions indicating maximum cable size of 1.5mm², however it easily accepts 2.5mm² which is essential for longer cables. I'd not expect to load this style beyond 13A due to the way they are constructed (Caveat - it's probable there are different versions made and constructed differently)

This originals of this style used to be made using solid wire links between the sockets and terminated in such a way that both sockets could easily handle 13A, however like all things, these have been dumbed down now made cheaper with bits of bent brass strip and I'd not expect them to cope with combined loads over 13A

 

[JohnW2]

We haven't no, but one assumes a 32A socket will probably be fed from a 32A protective device and suitable cabling.

That would certainly seem to be the most likely scenario, but we obviously don't know for certain.

Therin lies the problem the 32A socket should be fine to supply 26A but the adapter posted in the ebay listed is constructed using a 2 gang "portable socket outlet" (aka extension socket). ..... BS1363, frustratingly doesn't talk about total current rating for multiple socket outlets. .... I think a "weak in the middle" adapter is worse than a mere "unfused" adapter. Specifically I think it's fairly likely that even someone with electrical knowledge but perhaps not up to speed on the minutae of BS1363 would see the 32A plug, see the 2.5mm² (25A) flex but miss the fact that the adapter was constructed using a portable socket outlet.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'weak in the middle" adapter. Your problem seems to be with the "portable socket outlet". Do you really believe that the small (probably brass) bits of conductor within one of those that carry the current to both outlets would have any problem coping with 26A? Furthermore, I suspect that very few households even have two or more items of plug-in 13A outdoor equipment, let alone would ever want to power them simultaneously! I would also remind you that, as we know, overheating in BS1363 plugs/sockets very commonly occurs because of poor contact between the fuse and holder, an issue which does not arise in these ('unfused') dual socket outlets.

Whilst I do not doubt that Mr Jobsworth would be proud of you, in that one cannot disagree with the theoretical points you are making, I cannot help but think of barrels and scraping - and, for what it's worth, I would be totally comfortable having items such as we are talking about in-service in my house

If you want to safely run 2x13A loads of a 32A socket you would need to construct an adapter in some other manner.

Yes, literally probably true - but see above, in particular that I doubt that many households would even have two or more such 13A plug-in loads!

 

[JohnW2]

This style of socket is marked as TOTAL LOAD NOT TO EXCEED 13A the Masterplug version comes with instructions indicating maximum cable size of 1.5mm², however it easily accepts 2.5mm² which is essential for longer cables. I'd not expect to load this style beyond 13A due to the way they are constructed (Caveat - it's probable there are different versions made and constructed differently) .... This originals of this style used to be made using solid wire links between the sockets and terminated in such a way that both sockets could easily handle 13A, however like all things, these have been dumbed down now made cheaper with bits of bent brass strip and I'd not expect them to cope with combined loads over 13A

As I've just written/asked, do you really believe that those (presumably very short) 'bits of bent brass strip' would have any problem carrying 26A - even if (as I said, I would think unlikely in most households!) one even had two or more 13A loads that could be plugged in?

 

[pete01]

OMG

 

[JohnW2]

OMG

I think that there still are plenty of job opportunities for Mr Jobsworth and his friends, not the least because we usually can't deny that much of what he says is strictly/theoretically true. However ......

 

[SUNRAY]

As I've just written/asked, do you really believe that those (presumably very short) 'bits of bent brass strip' would have any problem carrying 26A - even if (as I said, I would think unlikely in most households!) one even had two or more 13A loads that could be plugged in?

TBH no I don't simply blame the CSA of the brass strips. However lets just say that the Duraplug socket I pictured get very hot, to the point where the plastic body softens and demoulds (if such a word exists) and distorts if anything near 26A is drawn for an extended period, this is not the socket holes (although the later versions are not as good as the originals) but rather any joints/the wire connexion points/the pathetic riveting. I have known of a number of similar situations, the trouble is it wasn't a problem with the earlier/original versions and despite the body materials being different now they still look very similar, especially when well used.

Don't forget extension leads are not restricted to domestic situations.