Atmos - take heat from land rover and stores in home

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It will be all from clean gas, renewables and nuclear.

All this so called clean gas produces lots of Co2, Vehicles used to be powered by renewables, can you not remember the Foden steam truck? So when will our next new Nuclear power station come on line? I note that the worlds oldest nuclear power station finished generating this week.... How many have we got left?.
 
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On the last tankful my small diesel did 71 mpg. Rather higher than the more usual 54 mpg when mostly used in London.

While its still running I think that I will be unlikely to improve on the economy!

Starting handles use man power!

Tony
 
J

JonasX

If Toyota's are the most reliable cars you can buy why is it they've had to recall around 9 million vehicles worldwide to repair various defects?

The pedal. They recalled them to allay the public because of overhyped US media.

100% Electric cars and hybrids will clean up towns and cities. London gets fined regularly for breaking the air limits. Marylebone Rd is one of the most polluted in Europe. All taxis, utility vans and busses should 100% electric or hybrid.
 
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How will that work when I live 40 odd miles away?


Was on the Marylebone Rd to day. Got arrested for driving through a Royal park. £30 fine. Great.

Jonas a little less Google, and a little more life and you will see that it is not practical for the vast majority.

You should see what Mugen have done to a Hybrid CRX :LOL:

100% electric cars will be great when they have a 600 mile range that can be charged in 20 minutes from electricity that was generated using Nuclear power.

Alternative Fuel Cell technology will most likely come to the fore once they have figured out what to do with the all the H2O by-product and that dangerous Hyrdogen.

Or perhaps they will come up with something that can be powered by the tears of children. Children crying because of what we have done to the planet :rolleyes: as if it wasn't already too late anyway.

Toyota... hmm... biggest recall in motoring history weren't it?
SPAD_ToyotaFrontRoom1.jpg%20


No thanks :LOL:
 
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I'd rather have a Toyota that doesn't stop than a Land Rover that doesn't go... :D

All manufacturers have recalls, but most keep it quiet and the job gets done when the car goes for service... Remember the BMWs that got new engines when the car got serviced? 9 times out of 10 the owner never knows that their car has been subject of a recall....

VW didn't even see it as a serious issue when early T5s were left with the tailgate unlocked if the lock button was pressed twice and BMW alter the software to reduce the power of some 1 series models due to premature transmission problems
 
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Land Rover program HP reduction in their ECU's too to protect engine life.

I remember not long after they released the new shape Mini (not that Mini is it :LOL:), they had a problem with sparks from static in the filler caps. German engineering at it's best :LOL:.
 
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Dunno about you but If I had bought a car that was supposed to have Xbhp, then I would be pretty cheesed off if they reduced that output 'cos the rest of the car couldn't handle it... Granted most drivers would never be able to tell, but.... Like you I too had the van upped a little and to be fair it has handled the extra power well, the DMF lasted nearly 100k miles and the O/S drive shaft lasted to 75k miles...

VW dealers are even confused which oil is right for my van and I check it carefully at the counter.... How many customers have had the wrong oil put in their van at service time.... :mad:
 
J

JonasX

Was on the Marylebone Rd to day. Got arrested for driving through a Royal park. £30 fine. Great.

I live next to the park - great. You polluted too.

Hybrids and EVs are 100% ;practical right now. I did not Google.

100% electric cars will be great when they have a 600 mile range that can be charged in 20 minutes from electricity that was generated using Nuclear power.

The technology is here to do that now. Toshiba are making a battery that 80% is charged within a few minutes. The plants are being setup. Because the dinosaur auto companies do not offer them does not mean they are not feasible. They are. 600 mile range? Are you going over a desert? 300 is all you need then a fast charge at a zap station. Drive a Prius and you will not look back. The engine is off at the lights. eerily quiet - superb!

I have had a Toyota for 10 years. Still on same back brakes, exhaust, well everything. Only the battery has been replaced and brake pads, wipers and filters. Not once has it broke down and its done 125,000 miles. It glides down the motorway. The next will be Lexus or Toyota. Well if the Ampera is available maybe that. The only reason I have had it 10 years from new is that it kept going and going and going.
 
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All this Hybrid guff serves no purpose other than to con the motoring public into thinking that they are being green
The emissions and mpg tell a different story.
Which is why it's well known that the "official" consumption figures are a complete and utter con - because at the time the official tests didn't account for the battery. Real life consumption is nothing like the headline figures - a growing number of "conventional" diesels can do better.

And of course, most of us recall the Top Gear test where they demonstrated a BMW M-something using less petrol than a Pious.
100% electric cars will be great when they have a 600 mile range that can be charged in 20 minutes from electricity that was generated using Nuclear power.
The technology is here to do that now. Toshiba are making a battery that 80% is charged within a few minutes.
The battery technology for 80% charge in a few minutes has been around for a lot of years. Do the figures and you'll see that a) it won't do that on a domestic supply without blowing the fuse, and b) if more than a handful of people try it, then the distribution network would collapse in a molten heap.
The infrastructure upgrades required for mass electric vehicle uptake would be huge - incredibly costly, and incredibly disruptive.

If you want to learn something, go and find out about methanol. Basic process is : potassium hydroxide + atmospheric CO2 gives something I can't remember (it made the beaker go white and chalky in the chemistry lessons at school) - that's captured your atmospheric CO2. Add in hydrogen, and you regenerate the potassium hydroxide while making methanol. The hydrogen can come from various sources, but add enough solar PV panels somewhere sunny and it can be done by solar - in the meantime it can be done by nuclear, or worst of all by steam reforming using coal (which is where most hydrogen for these "clean hydrogen cars" currently comes from).
The CO2 will distribute itself around the globe, so you can put your extraction plants where the electricity (sunshine) is to make hydrogen. The liquid can then be transported easily and cheaply to where it's needed.

Methanol can be used in pretty well any engine that burns petrol. To incorporate the flexibility in current production cars would cost only a few quid/car to make the software handle flex fuel. Even carbs can be altered (but then you couldn't use petrol). So for point of use, the implementation costs would be very low.

But then we have the biggie - methanol is completely miscible with ethanol and petrol. A flex fuel engine could burn any mix of those without adjustment. Methanol is liquid at normal temperature and atmospheric pressure, can be transported, stored, and dispensed with the exiting infrastructure. So it could be adopted simply by forecourts designating one tank for methanol (or more likely in the short term, petrol/methanol mix) like some do for high-ethanol mixes already.

Do the sums, when you "recharge" a liquid fuelled vehicle, the effective power flow rate would come into megawatts - simply because it's got a high energy density, and can be poured quickly.

And for good measure, methanol is much safer than petrol. It burns with less radiant heat, and if swallowed can be treated - whereas swallowing petrol or diesel is really not advised.
 
J

JonasX

A friend has the new Prius. The do better in town crawling than on motorways - the reverse of other cars. He is getting over 70 mpg in a reasonable sized car than can shift in acceleration and keep up with all zippy traffic. It is not a small, crawling, noisy, heavy polluting, diesel hatch. It is very quiet and a seamless drive. It is worth buying just to drive it.

The Top Gear tests where rigged to demonstrated a BMW M-something used less petrol than a Prius. I can't believe anyone takes that show seriously - it is light entertainment nothing else. The Prius is not meant to be on motorways constantly, although it does glide down motorways when it wants to. A so-called motor show that derides any new, advanced, innovation in vehicles is not worth taking note of. Although Clarkson was mightily impressed with the performance of the Tesla. There is reason why commuter trains are mainly electric - look at their performance to the crawling noisy diesel Pacers. The electric zip along.

The Prius is in it own in cities where most pollution occurs and most lungs are. The Prius has NO, harmful, kerbside emissions - idling in jams. In cities kerbside emissions account for a large percentage of harmful emissions. If all vehicles on the Marylebone Rd had no kerbside emissions the road would not be one of Europe's most polluted.

The Prius is not aimed to run around country lanes and motorways. It is designed to cut emission were millions of lungs are - it was originally aimed at Japanese cities.

The Prius is only one of many hybrids these days, although a modern pioneer. Comparisons now should be with the Chevy Volt. In 12 years time if the batteries run down, they can be changed to the then latest more advanced versions, and fill the mainly empty battery bay, and transform the car. Cost is prob around £1,000, the price of replacing a duff transmission on other cars. Then another 20 plus years of life in a transformed car with great range, while a replacement transmission only keeps a crock like a crock.

Diesels? In summer I was sitting at a pavement cafe in London. The constantly crawling traffic was mainly diesels, vans and taxis. The noise, and vibration, was awful. A few Prius cars crawled by in the line and the absence of noise and shudder was marked. Diesels in cities and towns are a nuisance in many ways. The emissions are carcegenic, soot, which blackens buildings-and lungs. The sooner they are banned the better.

The Toshiba batteries are the most advanced and not yet on the market but imminent. The 80% charge would need to be at zap stations, which will need to be built. The grid infrastructure is there. They can be trickle charged from home. The infrastructure upgrades would not be so disruptive at all. Large station supercapacitors can charge overnight and store to discharge for the day. In 1914 there was little petro distribution infrastructure - you bought petrol in cans from the chandler. It soon came.

Shanghai are using supercapacitor busses right now. They charge between bus stops by making contact with an overhead contacts at bus stops. Supercapacitors are used to claw by kinetic energy in trains and lifts. Overhead wires can be thinner because of it.



All these eco fuels are fine for burning to make electricity or for off-the-grid applications. Volatile Hydrogen in cars? Nah.

The end user will be running on electricity for most things. We would rip up the gas mains, only it is more efficient to burn gas at point of use in the home - over 90% to 40% via the grid when using it to make electricity. The lines losses will be less if small, local, highly responsive, power stations are used, raising the efficiency by quite a hype.

One thing is clear, around 3/4 of all oil in the world is burned in transport applications. In these applications only 20% is used to move the vehicle. That polluting waste has to stop ASAP. Better to burn the oil/gas efficiently at source, there is less waste overall.
 
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The Top Gear tests where rigged to demonstrated a BMW M-something used less petrol than a Prius.
Of course it was rigged, but they were making an important and very valid point - that these hybrids don't gain anything on long, constant speed runs. Over the 'route' driven, the M-something used less petrol than the Pious, and it's not hard to think why when there's all the weight and conversion losses putting the Pious at a big disadvantage.

There are of course other technologies worth looking at. One of the ways the Pious gets better efficiency is by having what is effectively a CVT (continuously variable transmission). This can dramatically increase engine efficiency by allowing the engine to run at best efficiency for any given power requirement, and using the transmission to match that to required output speed. You can do that with mechanical transmissions more efficiently (eg Torotrac) without the weight or efficiency penalties of electric conversions. It won't give you zero idling emissions (but stop/start and integrated starter/flywheel can), and it doesn't give you regenerative braking - but it's a darn sight lighter !
The Prius has NO, harmful, kerbside emissions - idling in jams.
That's technically correct, but the sort of nonsense a politician uses when he want's to tell a lie without actually telling a lie. IIRC the Pious won't go very far or very fast without firing up the engine - and then the tailpipe emissions are very much not zero.
The Toshiba batteries are the most advanced and not yet on the market but imminent. The 80% charge would need to be at zap stations, which will need to be built. The grid infrastructure is there. They can be trickle charged from home. The infrastructure upgrades would not be so disruptive at all. Large station supercapacitors can charge overnight and store to discharge for the day. In 1914 there was little petro distribution infrastructure - you bought petrol in cans from the chandler. It soon came.

Shanghai are using supercapacitor busses right now. They charge between bus stops by making contact with an overhead contacts at bus stops. Supercapacitors are used to claw by kinetic energy in trains and lifts. Overhead wires can be thinner because of it.
Sorry, on that you are completely deluded.

Do the figures and you'll find that our grid could not support a significant proportion of cars going electric, and certainly not recharging during the day. Supercaps are fine, but not storing the sort of power capacity that would be needed. Oh, and BTW - do you know what the losses are in charging and discharging a cap ?

I can see the efficacy of their use in busses. A bus stops frequently and only travels short distances between stops. Thus it's energy storage requirement is quite small. Now unless you are advocating that we have to pull in every couple of miles to top up, then that's a red herring.

Apologists for these technologies, or rather advocating their use where they simply cannot work as claimed, like to use these inappropriate examples to push things along. It doesn't take a huge amount of engineering knowledge to see through the smoke and mirrors.

Your quote about petrol distribution infrastructure is a good example of that. It is true that supply adapted to meet demand. The big difference is that liquid fuel transport and dispensing can be built quite easily. A retail forecourt requires just the land you can see, and access to a road so tankers can get in for supply, and customers can get in to buy it. The electricity supply needed is just a normal commercial supply to run the lights and a few pumps - and these days the fridges as well.

You can't deliver electricity by tanker - so you need to upgrade the local distribution network to suit. I can assure you that these upgrades will most certainly be disruptive and expensive - involving the digging up of many miles of roads to lay new cables. This won't be a quick "dig a shallow trench and drop a cable in", these will be slow as the trenches for HV cables will be considerably deeper than for LV. Then the substations will need upgrades (new bigger transformers - lets hope there's room within the substation boundary for them), and the main grid may need reinforcement as well.

Of course, while some of this work is going on, the old kit (transformers, switchgear, etc) will need to be taken out of service - and that means you need to limit demand to what the rest of the supplies in the substation can handle. My brother is in the business, and when upgrading some kit in the substation I can see from my office window, they had to ask some large industrial users to reduce their consumption to avoid overloading the other half of the substation.

Now, for your homework, go off and find the calorific value of petrol/diesel (and propane as well please). Work out the equivalent in kWHr for a litre of liquid fuel.
When you have that, you can work out the equivalent power required to provide a rapid charge facility that comes anything close to filling a petrol/diesel/LPG tank - I think you may be a tad surprised at the figure.
You can also guesstimate the average quantity for a petrol/diesel/LPG fill, and the number of vehicles served by an average forecourt during a day, and hence the total energy storage for your "charge overnight, sell during the day" scenario - and the average power required from the grid.

When you've put some figures together, and can justify why they won't break the system, then you may get people listening.
 
J

JonasX

The Top Gear tests where rigged to demonstrated a BMW M-something used less petrol than a Prius.
Of course it was rigged, but they were making an important and very valid point - that these hybrids don't gain anything on long, constant speed runs.

They are NOT designed for that. I made it clear they were designed to cut down urban emissions. They do that brilliantly. They have low emission Atkinson cycle engine. The new Prius is a slightly different matter.

There are of course other technologies worth looking at. One of the ways the Pious gets better efficiency is by having what is effectively a CVT (continuously variable transmission). This can dramatically increase engine efficiency by allowing the engine to run at best efficiency for any given power requirement, and using the transmission to match that to required output speed. You can do that with mechanical transmissions more efficiently (eg Torotrac) without the weight or efficiency penalties of electric conversions.

Torotrac is an in-line trasnmisiosn. The Toyota transmission is "parallel. It apportions power from either elec or petro motor, or both and presents the wheels as it as if it is an electric motor. Elect motors need no transmissions.

The Prius has NO, harmful, kerbside emissions - idling in jams.
That's technically correct, but the sort of nonsense a politician uses when he want's to tell a lie without actually telling a lie.

Read what I wrote. Kerbside emissions in congested cities amount for substantial pollution. If all cars in London were Prius the emissions would drop like a stone.

IIRC the Pious won't go very far or very fast without firing up the engine - and then the tailpipe emissions are very much not zero.

But they are still very low and the elect motor will assist when needed. The new Prius has a longer range. Calcars in the USA put a large battery pack in the Prius and amain charger. It can go about 200 miles on a full charge then the engines steps to to recharge and/or drive the car. Just by a plug and big battery set.

Understand what the Prius was trying to achieve in 1997. People have a fascination of now using this car as the hybrid norm. It is now outdated Look at The Volt. Focus on that. The Volt's genny engine is not that good. There is newer dedicated version to come out improving the lot of the car.

EVs will not come en-mass overnight, however HMG are preparing for an increase in elec infrastructure as they float in. Nuclear stations are part of this. HMG are not completely daft.

The 1997 Prius was supposed to have a supercapacitor, not a battery. Supecaps have improved enormously. They work very well in city driving clawing back kinetic energy. Recall EVs and the interim hybrids are design to reduce/eliminate urban pollution. You may live in a rural/semi rural area and don't care. I do.

The only Apologists are the Luddites who can't see the light and still laud antiquated, pollution belching, wasteful technology, like the IC engine.

These advanced cars work as claimed. The Prius is now old hat. Things have moved on. IC engines should be confined to museums.

Liquid fuel transport and dispensing takes an enormous setup. The refineries, storage depots, stations, are all substantial.

Upgrading the local distribution network is not a great thing. Dedicated lines can be run in just for zap stations. No different to the disruption in replacing water mains or running in tram lines. Stop imagining things.

Now, for your homework, go off and find the calorific value of petrol/diesel (and propane as well please). Work out the equivalent in kWHr for a litre of liquid fuel.

I wrote this....

With what we currently know, the single most important step is going from lead or nickel batteries at around 30-50 mile ranges, to lithium that will give 150 mile ranges or more.

Lithium batteries are at around the 700 MJ/ton mark now. The very best nickel metal hydride are less than half that. Nanogate capacitors are the same just below nickel metal hydride. A small car needs around a 50 Kwh, 180 MJ, energy in the "tank". In NiMh that's 3/4 ton, with Li-Ion it is more like a 1/4 ton.

A litre of diesel is about 10 Kwh, burned at around 20% efficiency. 80% of the energy in the tanks is wasted. 50 litres of diesel is equivalent to 100 KWh of battery. So the equivalent of 25 litres of diesel in an electric power train at around the 400 kg mark is possible with Li-Ion batteries.

50 litres of diesel equivalent takes us up to equivalent of half a ton of battery. That is very comparable with the weight of a normal internal combustion engined powertrain. Electric cars require very little else besides the batteries, just small motors. No radiators, massive heavy, complex transmissions, exhaust systems, anti-vibration mounts and the miles of pipes and ducts that surround a current internal combustion engines vehicle setups. An electric car gives superior packaging of the batteries and mechanicals than the current internal combustion cars and can give superior handling, and safety, in a lower centre of gravity.

Get it? ;)

You are grasping at straws carping on about that the infrastructure will not cope. It will when gradually updated.

Look at North Sea Gas. Within 18 months of a big find, the first district was converted - and all appliance as well. All the UK was done within 8 to 9 years - infrastructure built and appliances converted. Every meter needed a regulator as well and many needed replacing. Are you saying the UK can't accommodate EVs? Please.

Flashback to 1965. "They can't use all that natural gas in the North Sea because the appliances can't burn it". "A waste of time! Block up the well, they should still keep looking for oil".
 
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The IC engine , diesel & petrol will be with us for a long . long time , good I say !!

In India they are now producing the £1100 car ( Tata ) selling like hot cakes , China are set to become the largest producer of petrol vechles ect !

What we the west do , in order look good , or appease the the green , hypocrite lobby group , in the great scheme of things will not amount to a bag of beans !!

Stuff yer Vorsprung Durch Tecnique :)
 

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