Boiler Service - What fun! 7 hours and limited response from Intergas

[boolie]

Thanks for the advice.

I'll be giving my old buddy (who only does IG) a call to see if he can service it and failing that Intergas. I imagine if he only does IG then he will have the service items on hand that might be needed to correct it assuming it is something minor like a gas ring?

do come back and give us an update! This is all very interesting and am impressed by your due diligence.

Ive been thinking about getting a intergas when my boiler packs up.. but you make a interesting point - not a lot of RGI's know about them because they are designed differently. All other combi's have the same high level design

 

[Madrab]

not a lot of RGI's know about them because they are designed differently

TBH, I don't believe the way they are designed that's the issue, It's just certain RGI's that can't/won't grasp a different kind of concept. The operating principle is really very simple.

The IG HEX and internal design is lot less complex than the other 'standard' designed boilers. 'Normal' boilers include diverter valves & motors, main HEX's, plate HEX's, hydroblocks and all the rest of the plumbing/gubbins etc need to run properly. Much more complicated IMO with much more that could go wrong.

 

[Razor900]

If the readings are coming out as you say servicing won't make any difference.

If it was fitted two years ago it might not have had the revised installation instructions stating that extra room should be given on the LHS to enable the vessel to be swung out. It never used to be in them.


Lets not hang the installer yet...

 

[Rhothgar]

If the readings are coming out as you say servicing won't make any difference.

If it was fitted two years ago it might not have had the revised installation instructions stating that extra room should be given on the LHS to enable the vessel to be swung out. It never used to be in them.


Lets not hang the installer yet...

Spoke with IG today and a few things have come out of this.

The manual I have is naturally the one that came with the boiler but I've downloaded the latest from the website. I have not checked to see if there is any difference but everything I garble on about in the post always relates to the downloaded manual.

IG informed me that there are errors in the installation manual and that this comes from the fact the legislation in the Netherlands is different to that in the UK and basically the Dutch manual has simply been translated into English. (It seems without a huge amount of thought or by anyone with technical knowledge. It's just been translated!). So that explains why a lot of the section clauses do not match up. No big deal really. Not confidence inspiring but surmountable.

On the readings issue, IG think that he misunderstood what they said and, to be honest, I'd like to hear it from a registered IG installer's lips in that the service should be done every 3 years ie the cleaning out of the heat exchanger itself. I told them that he handed me the condensation trap and asked me to clean it out. It was dirty and there was sediment on the bottom. They said that that is a sure sign that the inside needs cleaning. He has since said that traps could get dirty within a few hours of use.

So the confusion was that he thought it only needed opening up every 3 years but IG said the front seal should be changed every 3 years to me today but that the boiler should be clean out every service. He's (plumber) since said the seal should be changed every time the front is taken off. Perhaps he's just covering himself there from a liability / good practice POV and that's absolutely fine.

He also said that perhaps it needs a plume management kit. I've re-read the manual again tonight and it does state in the important installer notes that the installer should observe the plume to see if a PMK is necessary. It's certainly looking likely.

I'll get him to do a clean first and re-test and go from there.

 

[ianmcd]

A PMK is only required to conform with manus instructions or regs, it doesnt make any difference on how the boiler performs, if your origional flue was correctly installed ,fitting a PMK wont make any difference whatsoever

 

[Rhothgar]

A PMK is only required to conform with manus instructions or regs, it doesnt make any difference on how the boiler performs, if your origional flue was correctly installed ,fitting a PMK wont make any difference whatsoever

Thanks for the input ianmcd. It's appreciated.

This is from the Manus instructions:-

Note Intergas cannot be held responsible for atmospheric conditions when siting flue terminals CAUTION Once the flue has been installed and the appliance commissioned, installer should observe the plume direction. Particular attention should be drawn to plume vapour reentering the boiler via the air intake. If this occurs, it is highly possible the flue is fitted within a negative pressure area and therefore a plume management kit (PMK) must be fitted.

So if flue gas with CO2, CO is discharged from the flue and some of it gets immediately blown back into the intake, this would not affect the readings.

I think the fact that according to the instructions service engineer should wait 3 minutes minimum for readings to stabilise then this presumably rules out any effect where the odd bit of exhaust gas gets blown back in?

Back to getting IG involved methinks. They said they are currently looking at the New Year for one of their engineers to come out.

 

[Mr.B]

Thanks for the input ianmcd. It's appreciated.

This is from the Manus instructions:-

Note Intergas cannot be held responsible for atmospheric conditions when siting flue terminals CAUTION Once the flue has been installed and the appliance commissioned, installer should observe the plume direction. Particular attention should be drawn to plume vapour reentering the boiler via the air intake. If this occurs, it is highly possible the flue is fitted within a negative pressure area and therefore a plume management kit (PMK) must be fitted.

So if flue gas with CO2, CO is discharged from the flue and some of it gets immediately blown back into the intake, this would not affect the readings.

I think the fact that according to the instructions service engineer should wait 3 minutes minimum for readings to stabilise then this presumably rules out any effect where the odd bit of exhaust gas gets blown back in?

Back to getting IG involved methinks. They said they are currently looking at the New Year for one of their engineers to come out.

Really? Is that a reasonable period in which to get someone to you?

I started a topic a couple of weeks ago and Intergas response times were spoken about at that time. Razor advised that they had cut back on their in-house engineers team. Is this a direct result of that?

 

[Mottie]

Sounds like they may be running the business down/getting out of the U.K. market maybe?

 

[Mr.B]

^^^ I'm certainly in no position to know, others might be? but as soon as I heard about the takeover of IG by Rheem, a big American organization, it made me think that the writing might be on the wall. Did Rheem want IG for something that they had but which Rheem didn't? ... and would the UK be part of their long term plan?

I still can't believe that IG have said they can't send someone to look ata boiler until the New Year. Well, obviously I can believe it, but you know what I mean.

 

[Rhothgar]

^^^ I'm certainly in no position to know, others might be? but as soon as I heard about the takeover of IG by Rheem, a big American organization, it made me think that the writing might be on the wall. Did Rheem want IG for something that they had but which Rheem didn't? ... and would the UK be part of their long term plan?

I still can't believe that IG have said they can't send someone to look ata boiler until the New Year. Well, obviously I can believe it, but you know what I mean.

I was unaware of this Rheem takeover thing but then again I'm not in the industry. Good to know things like this though.

Bids for companies are usually because they want to expand their portfolio and move into a certain sector of the market.

IG must be very busy. I assume that their engineers are actually companies already out in the field and they are all busy. I'd doubt they have their own engineers per se. I may be wrong. Be interesting to know.

When they charge £90, they can afford £60-£70 for an approved installer to do the work for them then pocket the profit for doing very little. A sound business plan!

 

[Mr.B]

The takeover was on 31st May 2019.

Fellow contributor "Razor" has recently said that, as well as using independant installers to do callouts, they do have a direct workforce, employed by IG, of about a dozen. But he also said IG have made some redundant.

I've held off changing mine as I ponder on what's the best for me. I have the luxury of time on my side at the moment hence taking an interest in the likes of Intergas given the generally positive sentiments I see expressed. But these more recent development are hardly encouraging.

But I may well be in danger of digressing so I should desist.

 

[Gasguru]

I'm surprised it's taken so long for an American heating company to buy someone like Intergas.
The heat exchanger is unique and well proven. Replace the gas valve, pump, fan, pcb etc with US manufacture parts and appeal to the US public.
There are very few US condensing boiler manufacturers...and they all use the Giannoni heat exchanger that has always been questionable.
Worcester have a prescence over there (and the boilers are technically better than here in the UK).
AFAIR Rheem don't have a great reputation and buying Intergas is surely a good move.

As for Intergas UK they make the same mistakes as all the importers...zero common sense, poor support, extortionate part prices, poor spares availability etc.
There's no hope for them IMHO, they refuse to change.
The accounts aren't great AFAIR.

 

[ianmcd]

and they all use the Giannoni heat exchanger that has always been questionable.

Since when ? never seen or heard of one failing

 

[Rhothgar]

I've held off changing mine as I ponder on what's the best for me. I have the luxury of time on my side at the moment hence taking an interest in the likes of Intergas given the generally positive sentiments I see expressed. But these more recent development are hardly encouraging.

But I may well be in danger of digressing so I should desist.

Digression is my middle name so don’t worry about that.

Despite the current situation, I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend the IG Rapid 32.

My plumber mate when he installed it had nothing good to say about it at that time. But I know he’s ‘dyed in the wool’.

Dare I say he’s not the brightest of chaps as he did suffer a head injury when he was 19 but he’s not been accessory to killing anyone from CO poisoning as far as I know.

Some of the things he says to me do worry me. He has his gas safe annual test or renewal or whatever he has to do in January.

The conflicting information I get from IG and him makes me wonder who to believe.

He seems to think cleaning out the heat exchanger won’t let improve the readings.

I’m no expert but I’m thinking if there is some kind of detritus in or on the burner then it surely cannot burn as efficiently as it should do.

I know how adjustments affect CO on a car engine. A boiler is just a more refined, more efficient entity.

I hope it’s something as simple as that.

Worst case scenario IG come out and sort it under warranty or not. It’s not worth taking any risks where gas is concerned hence my concern that things are not 100% (even though it’s only an efficiency issue).

The difference having this new boiler has made compared to the old bombproof thing that was installed is incredible.

Why deliberate anymore? We’ll all be changing our boilers by 2030 anyway!!!!

Who knows the government might even give away air source heat pumps nearer the time or subsidise them ridiculously well.

 

[Mr.B]

^^^ ... all he above noted with thanks. Will await your developments.