Condensing con

[Biguns]

Am I pleased that Ive still got my 23 year old Thorn Apollo, that has cost me in total, £32 in parts. Phew!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1342357/Central-heating-break-big-freeze-Heres-.html

Oh and I have a spare in the garage attic, salvaged from my neighbour who was taken in by all the hype surrounding condensing boilers. So he had one fitted for no better reason than his Apollo was 20 years old.

 

[Boilerman2]

It is with no doubt that frozen condensate pipework has caused a huge problem this year we have been out to dozens of such instances BUT what is clear is the sheer lack of consideration of freezing by the original installers, condens pipes should be run internally as much as possible and if they have to be run outside, the external run should be as short as possible, be a suitable diameter (at least 32mm) and lagged to prevent freezing. without wishing to blow my own bugle - none of the frozed installations we have attended were installed by us, touch wood ours have all performed well with no freeze ups!!

 

[Tibbot]

none of the frozed installations we have attended were installed by us, touch wood ours have all performed well with no freeze ups!!

Agreed Boilerman 2, the only ones I've been to are those of others but the condensate is the least of my worries, as you say careful installation etc. What bothers me in front of the customer is that the quality of the boilers is seriously f****** sh*t. The deteriorating state of hx surfaces, baffles, burners each year and the crippling cost of spares and seals, all of which I can do nothing about.

 

[Boilerman2]

Broag Remeha - fine boilers reliable easy to service don't cost a fortune for parts!

 

[Tibbot]

Broag Remeha - fine boilers reliable easy to service don't cost a fortune for parts!

c/w Gianonni rapidly de-composing 0.7mm wall 304 low grade SS main heat exchanger though.

 

[Tibbot]

That's why Viessmann make their own superb quality heat exchangers in their own factory.

Pity the rest of it has more rubber accessories than you'll find in an Ann Summers shop.

 

[Agile]

I met a new, to me, merchant today who was telling me that he had so many complaints from installers about the previous Viessmann models that he stopped stocking them.

He still sells mostly Vaillant with a good number of Biasi. He also said that he gets very good feedback from those who have fitted the new Ideal Logic boilers.

Tony

 

[mysteryman]

The most significant word in Tony's post is 'previous'. They stopped making that one in 2008.

 

[joesoap1]

none of the frozed installations we have attended were installed by us, touch wood ours have all performed well with no freeze ups!!

Agreed Boilerman 2, the only ones I've been to are those of others but the condensate is the least of my worries, as you say careful installation etc. What bothers me in front of the customer is that the quality of the boilers is seriously f****** sh*t. The deteriorating state of hx surfaces, baffles, burners each year and the crippling cost of spares and seals, all of which I can do nothing about.

Hi, As a guy with a 17 year old Vokera, contemplating a change, I am horrified at the thought ,after the horror stories this winter with condensing boilers.It seems the punter now is just buying a future headache.Like everything today, they are built to breakdown for the profit in parts.Guarantees aren,t worth s"""e.Installers are hit and miss?present company excluded;;.Global warming my arse, when a steam pipe freezes there,s no global warming. ITS A CON asYOU say.Think I,ll run it till it drops.

 

[DP]

joesoap, your boiler, if serviced regularly, will last else you may end up with a steamer sooner than you think.

 

[joesoap1]

joesoap, your boiler, if serviced regularly, will last else you may end up with a steamer sooner than you think.

Hi DP, as I mentioned only yeterday;It was supposed to have had a regular/annual service with Homeserve+ boiler cover.last 5 years.Bloody useless.New more about the boiler than they did.Need to change diaphragm, probably do it myself.Put the boiler in, + 2 prior, no probs.Proper commissioned by Qualified engineer. only regs and hse.stop me now, time served engineer. Get a GOOD lad to service it in spring,stop homeserve, never there when required.Won,t touch the gas side.only water.cheers.I know this will bring some response from "regs only guys":If I can service and maintain, plus instal a multi-million pound underground hydraulic tunnelelling machine, I,m sure I can take cover off boiler and replace a diaphragm.retired now.

 

[D_Hailsham]

Broag Remeha - fine boilers reliable easy to service don't cost a fortune for parts!

c/w Gianonni rapidly de-composing 0.7mm wall 304 low grade SS main heat exchanger though.

Presumably that's why Vaillant/Glow worm use them?

 

[simond]

I haven't yet come across a Vaillant Gianonni heat exchanger failure.

Seen a few with gasket failure.

I don't see all the fuss about condensing boilers. The first ones in the UK were Kidd units which were based on a 1959 design, which was productionised (is that a word?) in 1982.

Many of those first ones are still going, and they didn't use stainless steel or aluminium heat exchangers back then. Just painted mild steel.

There is, in my view, nothing wrong with condensing boilers, but like most things, some have proved themselves to be more robust than others.

The Intergas is the baby of the forum at the moment, but in 4-5 yrs time will it still be? People on internet forums were bigging up Keston Boilers 6-7 yrs ago, now you couldn't give one away in a Christmas cracker.

There have been plenty of rubbish conventional (non-condensing) boilers produced over the years, those with an axe to grind have conveniently forgotten the Ideals, Pottertons etc that used to struggle to get 2 yrs service under their belts.

OK, it is agreed that the condense drains can freeze up. But that applies to any external pipework and is not exclusive to a condensing boiler.

 

[joesoap1]

I haven't yet come across a Vaillant Gianonni heat exchanger failure.

Seen a few with gasket failure.

I don't see all the fuss about condensing boilers. The first ones in the UK were Kidd units which were based on a 1959 design, which was productionised (is that a word?) in 1982.

Many of those first ones are still going, and they didn't use stainless steel or aluminium heat exchangers back then. Just painted mild steel.

There is, in my view, nothing wrong with condensing boilers, but like most things, some have proved themselves to be more robust than others.

The Intergas is the baby of the forum at the moment, but in 4-5 yrs time will it still be? People on internet forums were bigging up Keston Boilers 6-7 yrs ago, now you couldn't give one away in a Christmas cracker.

There have been plenty of rubbish conventional (non-condensing) boilers produced over the years, those with an axe to grind have conveniently forgotten the Ideals, Pottertons etc that used to struggle to get 2 yrs service under their belts.

OK, it is agreed that the condense drains can freeze up. But that applies to any external pipework and is not exclusive to a condensing boiler.

As my existing boiler is in garage, on single brick wall, and a drain directly below ,with gutter downpipe into it, would I be better bringing 3" downpipe into garage wall and running condense into it inside, or go through wall with condense pipe into drain?

 

[simond]

If the drain is directly behind the garage, then a 32mm pipe running the shortest distance outside will be the most practical solution.

If you want to make a failsafe version with respect to condense freezing, get your installer to fit an open tee in the garage, so that a condense drain blockage will cause the condense water to temporarily dribble into the garage rather than knock out the boiler.

A MkII version could be to put a bucket under the tee, so it catches the condensate! Trouble is, after 5 years of no snow the reason for the bucket will have been long forgotton and you will have used it in the garden!

But really all this condense stuff is a mere irritation, in the old days the early condensers used to drain into a bucket, and the customer had to remember to empty it periodically.

Drains will freeze up but only in extreme weather conditions, and statistically we don't see many days where this will happen if the arrangements are to manufacturer recommendations.

My condense doesn't have a trap and just goes stright outside to an open drain in 20mm hosepipe (as per my boiler manufacturer recommendations). It got to -14C outside and the boiler kept going.

It is fair to say that in my experience, Worcesters tend to freeze up more willingly than the Vaillants and Viessmanns, I can only assume this is due to the way the condense dribbles out. But generally speaking, they have a marginally better reliability record than the other two, so you win some, you lose some.